Christians: Question on Homosexualality

[Fides et Veritas]

First let me note that this is not a debate forum. I do not want arguments against other posts. If someone says something that you disagree with then feel free to post it one of the many debate threads for this subject. Feel free to ask for clarification. But do not attack or start arguments. This is precisely why I posted here and not in the Debate section. Refer to the numbered list below and please endeavor to stick with it.

Thank You.


1.)What denomination are you?
2.)How old are you?
3.)Are you an active member of your denomination?(I know people who are 4.)5.)4.)Catholic who never attend mass)?
5.)Are you close to anyone who is Homosexual(family, coworkers, friends, etc)?
6.)Do you think Homosexuality is a choice or is it genetic? Both?
7.)Does your denomination feel the same toward Homosexuality as you do?
8.)How do you treat Homosexuals that wait on you at restaurants, or fix your car?
9.)Do you support Civil Unions? Marriage?
10.)Do you also support them for people who are Homosexual?
11.)What verses do you feel stand against Homosexuality?
12.)What verses do you feel support Homosexuality?


Thanks

[labhras]

[Replying to post 1 by Fides et Veritas]

1.)What denomination are you?
Irish Evangelical Christian
2.)How old are you?
40
3.)Are you an active member of your denomination?
Yes
5.)Are you close to anyone who is Homosexual(family, coworkers, friends, etc)?
3 cousins, plenty of former work colleagues
6.)Do you think Homosexuality is a choice or is it genetic? Both?
Like all things sexual, it's a choice.
7.)Does your denomination feel the same toward Homosexuality as you do?
Yes
8.)How do you treat Homosexuals that wait on you at restaurants, or fix your car?
Not an issue.
9.)Do you support Civil Unions? Marriage?
Civil Unions-Yes and Yes-Marriage
10.)Do you also support them for people who are Homosexual?
Civil Unions-Yes and No-Marriage
11.)What verses do you feel stand against Homosexuality?
Romans 1:26,27 1 Timothy 1:9–10 Matthew 19:4-5 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
12.)What verses do you feel support Homosexuality? none

[marketandchurch]

[Replying to post 1 by Fides et Veritas]



1.)What denomination are you?
Reform Judaism
2.)How old are you?
26
3.)Are you an active member of your denomination?
No
5.)Are you close to anyone who is Homosexual(family, coworkers, friends, etc)?
Many of the people I work with, most of the lady friends in my life, 2 family members
6.)Do you think Homosexuality is a choice or is it genetic? Both?
Depends on biology, and society. We are 100% nature & 100% nurture.
7.)Does your denomination feel the same toward Homosexuality as you do?
No
8.)How do you treat Homosexuals that wait on you at restaurants, or fix your car?
Their orientation is as relevant to me as their taste in music.
9.)Do you support Civil Unions? Marriage?
Both
10.)Do you also support them for people who are Homosexual?
No. Only civil unions, granted they also provide all the benefits of marriage... I want it to be marriage in everything but name.
11.)What verses do you feel stand against Homosexuality?
Leviticus 18:22. Which is utterly useless if one is not versed in the rest of the bible, which is anti anything that can compete with it's male-female pairing, and the family unit it is meant to create, promote, and sustain.
12.)What verses do you feel support Homosexuality? One of the preeminent scholars on interpreting the bible, and one I look up to greatly, Jacob Milgrom, for interpreting the text, feels that there is support for the legitimacy of homosexuality and even gay marriage, from within the text:

DOES THE BIBLE PROHIBIT HOMOSEXUALITY, by Rabbi Jacob Milgrom, Professor Emeritus of Biblical Studies at the University of California, Berkeley



Of course it does (Leviticus) 18: 22; 20: 13), but the prohibition is severely limited. First, it is addressed only to Israel, not to other nations. Second, compliance with this law is a condition for residing in the Holy Land, but is irrelevant outside it (see the closing exhortation, 18: 24-30). Third, it is limited to men; lesbianism is not prohibited. Thus it is incorrect to apply this prohibition on a universal scale.



Moreover, as pointed out by my erstwhile student, Dr. David Stewart, both occurrences of the prohibition (18: 22; 20: 13) contain the phrase "as one lies with a woman" (lit. "lyings a woman"), an idiom used only for illicit heterosexual unions. Thus one could argue that carnal relations are forbidden only if their correlated heterosexual unions would be in these lists. For example, the Bible lists the following prohibited relations: nephew-aunt, grandfather-granddaughter, and stepmother-stepson. Thus, according to this theory, nephew-uncle, grandfather-grandson, and stepfather-stepson are also forbidden. This implies that the homosexual prohibition does not cover all male-male liaisons, but only those within the limited circle of family. However, homosexual relations with unrelated males are neither prohibited nor penalized. Admittedly, more than two occurrences of the phrase "as one lies with a woman" (Gen. 49: 4; Lev. 20: 13) [mishkevey eeshah משכבי �ישה -] are needed before accepting this argument as definitive.



As I mentioned above, in the entire list of forbidden sexual unions, there is no prohibition against lesbianism. Can it be that lesbianism did not exist in ancient times or that Scripture was unaware of its existence? Lesbianism existed and flourished, as attested in an old (pre-Israelite) Babylonian omen text (Texts from Cuneiform Sources 4, 194: XXIV 33') and in the work of the lesbian poet Sappho (born c. 612 BCE, during the time of the First Temple), who came from the island of Lesbos (hence "lesbian"). But, in the eyes of the Bible, there is a fundamental difference between the homosexual acts of men and women: in lesbianism there is no spilling of seed. Thus life is not symbolically lost, and it is for that reason, in my opinion, that lesbianism is not prohibited in the Bible.



Thus, from the Bible, we can infer the following: the female half of the world's homosexual population, lesbians, are not mentioned. Over ninety-nine percent of the remaining gays, namely non-Jews, are not addressed. This leaves the small number of Jewish gay men subject to this prohibition. To those who argue that the Bible enjoins homosexuality, a careful reading of the source text offers a fundamentally different view. While the Bible never applauds homosexuality, neither does it prohibit most people from engaging in it.

(LEVITICUS, pgs. 196-197, by Jacob Milgrom, 2004)

I disagree with him of course, and I'll make my case for our disagreement when time permits. But his argument carries great intellectual weight, because of the way it is specifically phrased in the text. After all, all of the laws, commandments, and prohibitions on the Jews were meant for a certain group of people, during a specific moment in history, to condition them into being God's vehicle for the spread of ethics on earth, and with regards to Leviticus, it states it specifically for a specific place on earth, the holy land of Israel.

But if he is right, and I am wrong, I can still feel intellectually satisfied for opposing gay marriage. Because the Jews have largely been a failure, in spreading their message to the world. Most of it is not their fault, as they have been hunted close to extinction by atheists, muslims, christians, nazi's, marxists, assyrians, romans, babylonians, egyptians, and on and on. But until there is a legitimate movement on earth for the spread of ethics, to elevate humanity to a higher standing, as the bible would want it, I have to take this position that I do.

[Domenic]

[Replying to post 1 by Fides et Veritas]

Your questions are good. I am not homosexual. When I was in religions, they all turned their backs to homosexuals. I did the same.

1.)What denomination are you?

A) I follow just the bible. I am not a member of any group.

2.)How old are you?

A) 77

3.)Are you an active member of your denomination?(I know people who are 4.)5.)4.)Catholic who never attend mass)?

A) I am a very active servant of God.

5.)Are you close to anyone who is Homosexual(family, coworkers, friends, etc)?

A) No.

6.)Do you think Homosexuality is a choice or is it genetic? Both?

A) This is the question I wanted to give reply to; Religions teach homosexuals will not have life. Matter of fact, there are many other reasons some people will not be given life. Since all people are bad it would seem we are all in trouble. I don't feel homosexuals are worse than the person who thinks the are good. We are all bad.
I won't go into detail on this post, but there is a good reason some people are homosexual. Did you know many animals are homosexual? Some even stay together for life.
There is a link between animal seed, and human seed. This can be proven with the bible, and has been proven with science. Before it can be proven one has to be able to prove the bible is true, and from God.
The bible tells how we got this animal seed, and how Jesus will remove it.
Do I believe homosexuals can be Christians? YES.

7.)Does your denomination feel the same toward Homosexuality as you do?

A) NA

8.)How do you treat Homosexuals that wait on you at restaurants, or fix your car?

A)As people?


9.)Do you support Civil Unions? Marriage?

A) I do not support what is against God laws...even the stuff I do wrong.

10.)Do you also support them for people who are Homosexual?

A)I put Gods law before mans law.


11.)What verses do you feel stand against Homosexuality?

A) The bible speaks of all the things against Gods laws. God says if we believe in his son Jesus, we will have life.


12.)What verses do you feel support Homosexuality?

A) None.


Thank you for the questions. This is a subject that religions should talk about.

[Divine Insight]

[mrow] Questions [mcol] Late teens early 20's [mcol] Today @ 64 [row]What denomination are you? [col]Christian Free Methodist [col]Taoism - Wicca [row]How old are you? [col] 20's [col] 64 [row]Are you an active member of your denomination? [col]Yes [col]N/A [row]Are you close to anyone who is Homosexual(family, coworkers, friends, etc)? [col]No [col]No [row]Do you think Homosexuality is a choice or is it genetic? Both? [col]I didn't really think about homosexuality at all back in those days. [col]Today I believe that is is a choice for some, and others have no choice. Clearly it's a choice for those who are bi-sexual. [row]Does your denomination feel the same toward Homosexuality as you do? [col]The topic never really came up much at our church. [col]N/A [row]How do you treat Homosexuals that wait on you at restaurants, or fix your car? [col]As anyone else [col]As anyone else [row]Do you support Civil Unions or Marriage for people who are Homosexual?[col]I never did combine religion with politics. I don't believe that it is necessarily to force my religious beliefs onto others via the laws of a Free Country. I am aware that not everyone in the USA is a Christian Free Methodist. So even though I may have religious views I see no reason to push those onto the laws of the Free Country in which I live. So I support the right of other people to chose to live how they wish. [col]I have the same political views today. I support the right of other people to chose to live how they wish. [row]Do you also support them for people who are Homosexual? [col]I support freedom of religious beliefs and lifestyles including homosexuality. Although having said this I do not support irresponsible sexual behavior in any case, be it homosexual or heterosexual. [col]I support the right for people to be free in their lifestyle choices and religious beliefs as long as all parties are consensual and their activities are socially responsible in terms of not harming or intruding upon others. In other words, I would personally object to people having wild and crazy sex orgies in my front yard. But I would object to that even if it was entirely heterosexual. [row]What verses do you feel stand against Homosexuality? [col]Our church wasn't focused on homosexuality. Moreover they viewed everything from the perspective of the teachings of Jesus. They were "Jesus freaks". So they would have played down the prejudices and bigotries of the Old Testament in favor of the Love, acceptance and forgiveness of Jesus. [col]Today I couldn't care less what the Bible has to say. [row]What verses do you feel support Homosexuality? [col]Our church wasn't focused on homosexuality. However, they did preach that Jesus taught us to be non-judgmental of others. And I feel that this would have been their stance on this issue. They were a very liberal denomination that focused on Jesus, forgiveness, and being non-judgmental of others. [col]Today I couldn't care less what the Bible has to say.