Do we have free will?

[scorpia]

The Persnickety Platypus Speaking:



Diverging from the original topic (True Christians love abortion) Scorpia and I entered a rather interesting discussion on human free will. The relevant posts have been split from the original topic and moved here for a more open philosophical debate.



Free Will- The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances

Recently, I have come to a personal conclusion that animals (in general) lack this quality, and are governed by two external agencies; genetics, and environment.



Do our our thoughts and actions depend on such circumstances, or may we make decisions of our own accord? If God created us each as unique, individual beings, then is it possible that he created some people more likely to revert to sin, therefore burdening them with an unfair opportunity at salvation?

Please try to disgregard the religious side talk jumbled in, and focus on the free will portion of the debate.

















Scorpia speaking:

Blame the puppet? Not the puppeteer pulling the strings?

And why presume that there is any puppetry at all?

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I'm afraid you missed my point; the intellect we now have allows us to counter-act any genetics. We can fix our own characteristics.

You must have missed my counterpoint. The very intellect that gives us the ability to tamper with chromosomes is determined by genetics in and of itself.

Not everyone has the characteristics and capacity needed to grow blue tomatoes, or even just counteract a simple psycological problem.

She will fail, but that doesn't negate free will. Just because a person's leg is bung doesn't stop a person from wishing it could move.

I can wish for natural green hair all I want. That does not give me the free will to conjur it.

The old will to survive could very well be an instinct. I guess that's right. But then, people can still ignore even that instinct.

Only if they are severely genetically flawed. ie completely stupid.

The only truly effective way of eliminating harmful chromosomes from the gene pool would be to wipe out everyone in the nation, or turn us all into mechanicized robots.

Or select certain groups of those with certain chromosones and stop them from breeding, allowing people with other sets of genes to multiply. Micro-evolution I guess.

Good idea.

Good luck getting past the civil rights groups though.

Exactly. But what about those times when we weren't forced? Were the wright brothers on the run from anything when they tries to find a way for man to fly?

Sure. They were running from ignorance and inability; the two most inhibitive traits plaguing modern man (sabre-tooth cats arn't such a concern anymore).

Trust me, that example in no way earn respect or anything. There is no practical reason for doing it whatsoever.

No, trust me. Eating roaches is a very practical thing to do around a social crowd that worships rash spontaneity.

Well do give me an example, aside from God, of what doesn't have a limited lifespan? Time destroys everything, doesn't it?

Does it? How would we know?

I say matter and the universe last forever. Given your very limited lifespan, how could you possibly disprove me?

Uncertainty is the only thing that is for certain.

I don't think that these or any other such traits are being selected for or against. "Ugly" people are appreciated just as much as beautiful people, not-so-intelligent as much as the smart-guy.

Sure, in a perfect world.

Evolution can only stop when a species quits reproducing. It's an implied biological fact.

[scorpia]

You must have missed my counterpoint. The very intellect that gives us the ability to tamper with chromosomes is determined by genetics in and of itself.

Not everyone has the characteristics and capacity needed to grow blue tomatoes, or even just counteract a simple psycological problem.

However once humans do have this intellect, is when they have free will

I can wish for natural green hair all I want. That does not give me the free will to conjur it.

You have free will because you are wishing for green hair. If you can choose between having green hair and red hair, then that's free will. The success of that choice doesn't matter. It's the choosing that matters. I can dream about having green hair as much as I like. And you can't stop me. You can tell me "You can't possible have green hair/ move you legs/ whatever", you can tell me "You don't have free will." But so long as I don't believe those words, I will remain truly free.

Only if they are severely genetically flawed. ie completely stupid.

Or depressed. Or willing to sacrifice themselves for others. Or their God.

Sure. They were running from ignorance and inability; the two most inhibitive traits plaguing modern man (sabre-tooth cats arn't such a concern anymore).

No, they wanted to fly. So they found a way. So what if mankind wasn't born with wings? They found a toy plane and found a way to fly from that.

No, trust me. Eating roaches is a very practical thing to do around a social crowd that worships rash spontaneity.

You do it then.

Does it? How would we know?

I say matter and the universe last forever. Given your very limited lifespan, how could you possibly disprove me?

If someone finds out how much matter is in the universe it can be determined whether it will expand into oblivion, or be pulled back into a singularity, or whatever. In any case, matter will not last in the universe forever; it could dissapear into a black hole, be converted into energy, etc.

Uncertainty is the only thing that is for certain.

Then you must be uncertain about whether free-will is non-existant.

Sure, in a perfect world.

Evolution can only stop when a species quits reproducing. It's an implied biological fact.

Yeah, but it's more likely due to genetic drift or some other factor.

[Bugmaster]

You have free will because you are wishing for green hair.

Yes, but as I've said before: can you will yourself into actually believing that you have naturally green hair (or that the sky is green, or that you have three heads, etc.) ? If you can't, then your will isn't really free, because there are things you can't make yourself think on cue. And if you can, then you're probably insane by modern standards.

This is part of the reason why I think the entire concept of "free will" is flawed.

[scorpia]

Yes, but as I've said before: can you will yourself into actually believing that you have naturally green hair (or that the sky is green, or that you have three heads, etc.) ? If you can't, then your will isn't really free, because there are things you can't make yourself think on cue. And if you can, then you're probably insane by modern standards.

It could be insanity. But then, anyone can will themselves into believing that there is a way to get natural green hair. And anyone can start wishing that they did have natural green hair. If they have the ability to wish it, don't they have free will?

[OccamsRazor]

If they have the ability to wish it, don't they have free will?

The issue here is also social limitations. I may decide that I wish to strip naked and paint myself blue. I then do not do this because I am aware of the social implications of doing this.
A girl I once knew did exactly this, she stripped naked and painted herself head-to-toe with blue acrylic paint. The reaction was to assume that she was mentally unstable and that she needed (and recieved) counselling. This means therefore that it was deemed that this action was beyond her mental control.

So therefore if you decide not to do this, then you do not have the free will to enable you to do so. If you decide to do it then you do not have the free will because your mental and emotional state is controlling your actions.

[scorpia]

The issue here is also social limitations. I may decide that I wish to strip naked and paint myself blue. I then do not do this because I am aware of the social implications of doing this.
A girl I once knew did exactly this, she stripped naked and painted herself head-to-toe with blue acrylic paint. The reaction was to assume that she was mentally unstable and that she needed (and recieved) counselling. This means therefore that it was deemed that this action was beyond her mental control.

So therefore if you decide not to do this, then you do not have the free will to enable you to do so. If you decide to do it then you do not have the free will because your mental and emotional state is controlling your actions.

Oookay. Well, of course people aren't going to do some things. However, who knows how many people have simply wanted to do that, without actually doing that? You may not do it, but you won't stop wishing it......

It's like, okay, if someone likes someone who might not like them, they wont try to hit on that person because of social implications. But it doesn't stop a person from dreaming about being able to do it, right?

So if I do have the ability to do it, then do my emotional states control me? Can't a person control their emotions? Can I control myself so that I can get over some "crush?" Maybe, I don't think it's impossible to get control of one's emotions and mind.


But would I try to control it?

[OccamsRazor]

It's like, okay, if someone likes someone who might not like them, they wont try to hit on that person because of social implications. But it doesn't stop a person from dreaming about being able to do it, right?

So if I do have the ability to do it, then do my emotional states control me? Can't a person control their emotions? Can I control myself so that I can get over some "crush?" Maybe, I don't think it's impossible to get control of one's emotions and mind.

Yes but in this "crush" you are battling between two opposing forms of control, on one side you have your emotional driver and on the other side you have a social boundary. I think that the question here is what decides which form of control you adhere to. You may say that "free will" is what allows you to balance one control against the other but you may also say that it is a mixture of your social influence and your genetic makeup which makes the decision for you.
In your "crush" example you may have predecided that the person you have the feeling for does not feel the same because of your own self esteem, which is in turn defined by genetic and social factors. You then may imagine the social implications and the decision to override your emotional control purely based on this preconception. This may mean that you never had any will in the decision it is simply your genetic and social constraints that made it for you.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Scorpia, why would thoughts and emotions not apply to the very same factors we have been discussing?

I can't just "decide" what I want; my wants and dreams are controlled by genetic and environmental necessities.

Why do some people cherish the thought of owning a fast car? They are programmed to relish speed and/or attention (or may just need to be able to get to work in a short amount of time).

Back to the green hair example, not very many people would want such a hair color. But I, by some natural tendancy, would prefer to be different and stick out in a crowd.

However once humans do have this intellect, is when they have free will

But why? Just because humans are more evolved than contemporary species suddenly means that all natural laws become null?

Intellect does not free us from genes. It merely allows our genes to develope a wider array of capabilities and emotions.

No, they wanted to fly. So they found a way. So what if mankind wasn't born with wings? They found a toy plane and found a way to fly from that.

Modern humans did not originally walk upright. However, through evolutionary means, we eventually developed the capability.

In the same way, humans were not born with wings, as you said. However, we have evolved the intellectual capabilities needed to attain flight by other means.

You can "choose" to build an airplane all you want. But unless you have the technological capabilities and means, you will never succeed.

You do it then.

Eat a roach?

I will. Doesen't bother me; Probably because I was not genetically programmed to be squeemish.

If someone finds out how much matter is in the universe it can be determined whether it will expand into oblivion, or be pulled back into a singularity, or whatever. In any case, matter will not last in the universe forever; it could dissapear into a black hole, be converted into energy, etc.

How can you determine this? Have you taken into account every single plausible condition and scenario that would effect this calculation?

Until the human mind evolves to the point of being omniscient, we will never know anything for certain.

Then you must be uncertain about whether free-will is non-existant.

True. And in the same way, I am often uncertain as to whether I actually exist. That does not mean I lend actual credence to such doubts.

Yeah, but it's more likely due to genetic drift or some other factor.

Why genetic drift as opposed to natural selection?

Why do you see humans as being so perfect? Can you honestly not find any imperfections in our race?

The environment we live in is constantly changing. Consequently, as do we.

[scorpia]

Yes but in this "crush" you are battling between two opposing forms of control, on one side you have your emotional driver and on the other side you have a social boundary.

Okay, here is a dilemma I was faced with some time ago; what if there was some crook who forced me onto drugs, and got me addicted. However due to some fancy new technology I am able to free myself of the addiction. However, if I have taken drugs, which I am told are meant to be "fun", then why would I choose to be free of them? Because of social constraints? The fear of overdose? Not enough of a reason for many. Because people are genetically programmed to do whatever makes them happy? So would they always be in thrall? Just because I like something doesn't mean I want it......

People face pain and humilitian for things which they believe in. It goes against genetics and social constraints. What then causes them not to give in to either?

I'm just thinking is all..........

What if you remove every factor that may cause a person to behave as she or he does, will you be left with anything?

I think that the question here is what decides which form of control you adhere to. You may say that "free will" is what allows you to balance one control against the other but you may also say that it is a mixture of your social influence and your genetic makeup which makes the decision for you.

I can't just "decide" what I want; my wants and dreams are controlled by genetic and environmental necessities.

Then let's say I decide to follow the crush. How come I don't do it all the time?

Why do some people cherish the thought of owning a fast car? They are programmed to relish speed and/or attention (or may just need to be able to get to work in a short amount of time).

Back to the green hair example, not very many people would want such a hair color. But I, by some natural tendancy, would prefer to be different and stick out in a crowd.

Both my sister and my father like the colour blue. So did I when I was young. Then later on in life I became more of an individual and liked the colour purple. Then red.

If one was genetics, and one was because of the environment, then why would I like red?

Why don't I like apricots when the rest of my family does?

How come I don't agree with them on many issues i.e muslims?

Where do I get the idea for such issues from if no-one ever agrees with me?

Why am I an individual?

In your "crush" example you may have predecided that the person you have the feeling for does not feel the same because of your own self esteem, which is in turn defined by genetic and social factors. You then may imagine the social implications and the decision to override your emotional control purely based on this preconception. This may mean that you never had any will in the decision it is simply your genetic and social constraints that made it for you.

Who says I have a reason for doing it?

Maybe I'm just being stubborn i.e. have a strong will.

And if my genetics have such a control of me then there is no point in debating who knows maybe I'm genetically programmed into believing free will?

Scorpia, why would thoughts and emotions not apply to the very same factors we have been discussing?

Because one can control those too.

But why? Just because humans are more evolved than contemporary species suddenly means that all natural laws become null?

What laws of nature? The free will issue is about what happens in the mind. What natural law should it follow? The closest law that the mind may follow is instinct, and I can choose to ignore that program.

Intellect does not free us from genes. It merely allows our genes to develope a wider array of capabilities and emotions.

And one of those capabilities is the ability to choose

[/quote]Modern humans did not originally walk upright. However, through evolutionary means, we eventually developed the capability.

In the same way, humans were not born with wings, as you said. However, we have evolved the intellectual capabilities needed to attain flight by other means.

You can "choose" to build an airplane all you want. But unless you have the technological capabilities and means, you will never succeed. [/quote]
Yes I can. I can look up information on how to make one. I can learn. I can make money and buy what I need, or improvise for other things I can't get. Come to think of it, I can imagine any invention I want to too. And I can dream about flying or owning an airplane as much as I want.

How can you determine this? Have you taken into account every single plausible condition and scenario that would effect this calculation?

I read it off "A shorter history of time" I think. Been a while since I read it though.

True. And in the same way, I am often uncertain as to whether I actually exist. That does not mean I lend actual credence to such doubts.

So then there's no problem with my own certainties

Why genetic drift as opposed to natural selection?

Isn't genetic drift a form of natural selection? Ach, what do I know...... But I just don't think "survival of the fittest" is such a big law that humanity follows. Everyone can get "fit."

Why do you see humans as being so perfect? Can you honestly not find any imperfections in our race?

The environment we live in is constantly changing. Consequently, as do we.

And we select which environment we want to be in.

[OccamsRazor]

People face pain and humilitian for things which they believe in. It goes against genetics and social constraints. What then causes them not to give in to either?

My problem is that they "believe" in these issues because of the genetic and social constraints rather than in spite of them.
I may say that I am willing to step in if I see someone being mugged, even though I may put myself in danger and do not expect to see a reward, why would I do it? The reason here may be social, I am taught by society that mugging someone is unacceptable and I am taught by popular culture that it is noble to stand up for the victim.

If one was genetics, and one was because of the environment, then why would I like red?

Your family are not the only social factors in making these choices. We are all continually barraged by advertising and we have peer interaction. Colours are quite strongly influenced by fashion. I would also ask why do you like the music you listen to? What about the films you watch? The TV shows? In all of these choices how much has mass advertising and current trends influenced these choices.

Why don't I like apricots when the rest of my family does?

Food is an interesting one. My wife is currently pregnant and has changed many of the foods she likes and dislikes. This is purely due to biology.

Why am I an individual?

Purely because the social influences and genetic makeup of each person is purely unique. No two people experience exactly the same events and the likelihood of two people having the same DNA except for monozygotic twins is very low.