Do we have free will?

[scorpia]

The Persnickety Platypus Speaking:



Diverging from the original topic (True Christians love abortion) Scorpia and I entered a rather interesting discussion on human free will. The relevant posts have been split from the original topic and moved here for a more open philosophical debate.



Free Will- The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances

Recently, I have come to a personal conclusion that animals (in general) lack this quality, and are governed by two external agencies; genetics, and environment.



Do our our thoughts and actions depend on such circumstances, or may we make decisions of our own accord? If God created us each as unique, individual beings, then is it possible that he created some people more likely to revert to sin, therefore burdening them with an unfair opportunity at salvation?

Please try to disgregard the religious side talk jumbled in, and focus on the free will portion of the debate.

















Scorpia speaking:

Blame the puppet? Not the puppeteer pulling the strings?

And why presume that there is any puppetry at all?

[HughDP]

I just thought this test might be relevant to this thread.

I'm not totally convinced by it myself, but it does raise the question (and seems to propose an answer) of how we might effectively test to see if we do indeed have free will.

[scorpia]

My problem is that they "believe" in these issues because of the genetic and social constraints rather than in spite of them.
I may say that I am willing to step in if I see someone being mugged, even though I may put myself in danger and do not expect to see a reward, why would I do it? The reason here may be social, I am taught by society that mugging someone is unacceptable and I am taught by popular culture that it is noble to stand up for the victim.

Actually, if the person is humiliated, social constraints would tell them to give in, not to resist. Yeah, you'd stop a person from mugging because of society, but what if society was against you? What if no-one accepts your POV and social constraints tell you to believe in something else? A person will not necessarily follow what society tells them to do rather they would think for themselves and stand up for their beliefs rather than relenting. So scratch social constraints.
And genetics? Okay, how would genetics work? Okay, a guy might be "genetically programmed' to want to have sex with a girl. But what if something goes wrong with his plumbing? He might find it painful, and will stop trying to have sex to avoid this, despite what genetics tells him to do. The need to avoid pain overceeds any other "program," except survival. If you're in trouble, it's a lot harder to keep a hold of beliefs.

Your family are not the only social factors in making these choices. We are all continually barraged by advertising and we have peer interaction. Colours are quite strongly influenced by fashion. I would also ask why do you like the music you listen to? What about the films you watch? The TV shows? In all of these choices how much has mass advertising and current trends influenced these choices.

Food is an interesting one. My wife is currently pregnant and has changed many of the foods she likes and dislikes. This is purely due to biology.

Biology, yes. But when it comes to the nerves, telling you which foods you want to eat, what's stopping them from attaching to another nerve? Are they programmed so that they aren't supposed to connect with a certain one? If so, why would it do so later, and then have my taste change again? Yes, biology in the case of pregancy would change someone's tastes, but I don't know if it really tells a woman exactly what to eat instead. It's probably hormonal. We only have so many chromosones however and genetics isn't variant enough to have so many sets of DNA that would control ones thoughts.

[Bugmaster]

It could be insanity. But then, anyone can will themselves into believing that there is a way to get natural green hair.

Really ? I doubt I could. As it happens, I think there's a way to get naturally green hair through genetic engineering -- but that's a belief based on evidence. If someone tomorrow showed me a convincing proof that green hair was impossible, period, then I'd have no choice but to believe it.

And anyone can start wishing that they did have natural green hair. If they have the ability to wish it, don't they have free will?

Wishes and beliefs about the actual state of the world are different things.

So, what does "free will" even mean ? If it means, "your will is not affected by any external factors", then I maintain that only madmen possess free will, because the rest of us form beliefs based on the environment that we observe on a daily basis.

[McCulloch]

So, what does "free will" even mean ? If it means, "your will is not affected by any external factors", then I maintain that only madmen possess free will, because the rest of us form beliefs based on the environment that we observe on a daily basis.

Not even that. If mental illness is caused, by brain chemistry, neurology, trauma or other factors, then even the severely mentally ill are not possessors of free will.

[scorpia]

Not even that. If mental illness is caused, by brain chemistry, neurology, trauma or other factors, then even the severely mentally ill are not possessors of free will.

That guy in "a beautiful mind" managed to fight for his sanity by himself.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

This discussion has led me to another conclusion- this time concerning our justice system.


There are no "criminals". Only unfortunate people driven to commit crime as result of a chance convergence of numerous external circumstances.


The justice system is inherently flawed due to it's fixation on retribution, and the concept that greater punishments beget greater deterrance. Consequently, problems such as mental illness and disrupt family systems- circumstances under which most crime is committed- go completely ignored.

"Criminals" are only as bad as the culture they are raised in. Sound societies have empty prisons.

Nations must accept this if they hope to ever see their crime rates fall (America, are you listening?).

[McCulloch]

Not even that. If mental illness is caused, by brain chemistry, neurology, trauma or other factors, then even the severely mentally ill are not possessors of free will.

That guy in "a beautiful mind" managed to fight for his sanity by himself.

He possessed a certain strength of character and a level of intelligence which helped him to achieve that. Unless you can show that strength of character and intelligence are uncaused, it still does not prove that he had free will.

[scorpia]

"Criminals" are only as bad as the culture they are raised in. Sound societies have empty prisons.

Australia is a sound society. At least in comparison to the USA. Yet there are many criminals out there.

He possessed a certain strength of character and a level of intelligence which helped him to achieve that. Unless you can show that strength of character and intelligence are uncaused, it still does not prove that he had free will

Pardon if I sould stupid, but what would the difference be between strength of character and strength of will?

[scorpia]

Why is it that someone who goes ahead and threatens people when he robs a bank, doesn't bring himself to harming his girlfriend?
Why is it that a man can carry out his more violent urges at one time, and then is able to suppress it all the next moment?

[McCulloch]

What would the difference be between strength of character and strength of will?

The question is not whether or not we have will or character. We clearly do. The question is whether that will is "free"; The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances. You seem to be arguing that his will or character was uncaused and I would argue that his strength of will had a cause; was constrained by external circumstances.