Questions on the Soul

[Nirvana-Eld]

Hi guys long time no see. (SAT's bogged me down )

When I first joined this site a while ago I made a similar topic. Now after reading butt-loads of books and with more knowledge (at least thats what I hope it is) and I feel that some real questions need to be posed towards theists.

First: What is the relationship between the mind and the conscious self?

Second: Is the soul synonymous with the conscious self?

Third: What is the purpose of this soul?

Fourth: What reasons is there for the soul to survive the body?

There are some more that I know I cannot think of now, but I'm sure that through the course of debate they will come to me. So for now this will do. Good to be back and with some free time for this.

[Segestan]

A none traditional fact:

First: What is the relationship between the mind and the conscious self?
<<< No need for a physical mechanism , the mind, if it is Not directly associated with the ability to use the body for all it’s designed senses. The mind is directly responsible for daily body functions>>>
Second: Is the soul synonymous with the conscious self?
<<<The Soul is You. The Soul is Not limited to the functions of the physical mind. The body is a direct result of your souls journey into time. >>>
Fourth: What reasons is there for the soul to survive the body?
<<< Soul is the everlasting real You. Soul is your real personified self before the materialization of the body allowed a personal journey through time. You–that your real self-will...aka soul , returns backs into the boundless motherland of the cosmic condition. The timeless condition. The Soul survives because it cannot be destroyed. The soul survives because You came into time as an adventuring individual entity who on the dissolution of the mechanical body simply returned back into that state of being that was Your condition before time was a realized part of your expression.>>>
All belief systems and ideas of creation are the direct result of the desire of the soul to journey into a realized condition, time, that allows the person to Not know and ponder. To make choices that leads to a dynamic experience. The human and animal life is multiple dynamic choices. Free willed choices. In some cases those choices are predetermined destiny. It just depends on the planning that was done with what is time for your personal journey. The numbers of souls is unnumberable– therefore that life span of each person must be limited to a number of years that all may enter the manifested reality. You should think of matter as a collection of souls who have joined themselves in union to forge a creation out of the boundless motherland of souls.

regards,

[QED]

Soul is the everlasting real You. Soul is your real personified self before the materialization of the body allowed a personal journey through time. You–that your real self-will...aka soul , returns backs into the boundless motherland of the cosmic condition. The timeless condition. The Soul survives because it cannot be destroyed. The soul survives because You came into time as an adventuring individual entity who on the dissolution of the mechanical body simply returned back into that state of being that was Your condition before time was a realized part of your expression

Hi Segestan. Welcome to the DC&R forums I've got a problem with your suggestion here: you talk about our real selves, by which I assume you mean our inner personality, our core values, likes, dislikes, attitudes etc. I can't think of much else apart from our catalogue of memories. The problem is, having personally suffered a stroke a while back and having looked into the subject in general, I'm only too aware that all these properties of the self are utterly dependent on the material substrate of our neural configurations (brains). There are countless unfortunate sufferers of mechanical brain damage who's personalities undergo irreversible changes as a consequence. These people's likes, dislikes, attitudes and core values can all change dramatically and there are well documented cases of people who undergo a complete transformation of character following accidental brain damage. In these cases what you would seem to be calling soul clearly is dependent on the material and can be physically damaged.

[McCulloch]

The Soul is You. The Soul is Not limited to the functions of the physical mind. The body is a direct result of your souls journey into time.

Please provide evidence that there is anything beyond a large group of organized cells which is the essential Me.

Soul is the everlasting real You. Soul is your real personified self before the materialization of the body allowed a personal journey through time. You–that your real self-will...aka soul , returns backs into the boundless motherland of the cosmic condition. The timeless condition. The Soul survives because it cannot be destroyed. The soul survives because You came into time as an adventuring individual entity who on the dissolution of the mechanical body simply returned back into that state of being that was Your condition before time was a realized part of your expression.

This answer begs the question. How do you know what you assert here?

[Bugmaster]

Please provide evidence that there is anything beyond a large group of organized cells which is the essential Me.

Just to play Angel's Advocate here:

The most common answer to this challenge is, "if we're just bio-machines made of regular matter, then we have no free will". The lack of free will is taken to imply implies all kinds of bad things, such as the inability to punish criminals (they're not responsible for their actions), the futility of debate (since your beliefs are predetermined by your atoms), etc.

Well, as you know, I've never found this answer particularly convincing. Firstly, the term "free will" is nebulous. What does it mean ? If it means, "your thoughts and actions are independent from any external factors", then no one's will is free. Secondly, it would certainly be sad if we couldn't prosecute criminals and such, but there are lots of other facts about the world that make us sad (I hate the speed of light, myself), and that doesn't make them any less true. And lastly, I don't see how the implementation of our thoughts (using cells, electrons, spirits, or something else) is important. If I can explain the world (including our thoughts) without resorting to dualism, then I'll stuck with monism, because it's more parsimonious (seeing as 1 < 2).

[McCulloch]

Please provide evidence that there is anything beyond a large group of organized cells which is the essential Me.

Just to play Angel's Advocate here:
The most common answer to this challenge is, "if we're just bio-machines made of regular matter, then we have no free will".

And this is called the logical fallacy, Appeal to Consequences of a Belief

The lack of free will is taken to imply implies all kinds of bad things, such as the inability to punish criminals (they're not responsible for their actions), the futility of debate (since your beliefs are predetermined by your atoms), etc.

I hope that Christians' motivations with regard to the penal system is not entirely retribution. It does not seem very Christ like does it? I would think that protecting society from the bad guys, discouraging potential bad guys, preventing vigilante justice and possible rehabilitation (if only from fear of returning to the big house) of the criminals would be higher on their list than retribution. Vengeance is mine says who?
Even without free will, debate is not futile. Without free-will our beliefs are determined by many things in a very complex and perhaps chaotic way. One of those factors which influence our beliefs should be the sound arguments articulated by skilled debaters such as the ones who post here.

Well, as you know, I've never found this answer particularly convincing. Firstly, the term "free will" is nebulous. What does it mean ? If it means, "your thoughts and actions are independent from any external factors", then no one's will is free.

You would think. But it seems as if there are those who advocate such a definition. To them we each have a will which is uncaused by any material factor. The thing which affects this free-will is the Soul; immaterial, undetectable, and nonfalsifiable .

[HughDP]

Well this is what I think:

First: What is the relationship between the mind and the conscious self?

The mind is the 6th sense in effect. It's another form of input - along with sight, smell, taste etc. - to the entity we call self. The entity which we call self is itself not an independent entity, but a component part of the greater environment around it.

The conscious self only exists inasmuch as how we define one for ourselves and others. What we call 'self' is like an internal picture of how we view ourselves (often different to how others view us); it's a collection of thoughts and opinions. There's no reality in it beyond that.

Second: Is the soul synonymous with the conscious self?

I don't think so, but ...

Third: What is the purpose of this soul?

... I don't tend to think there's anything that we can define as a separate soul. I would tend to lean towards the more physical descriptions that others have postulated here.

Fourth: What reasons is there for the soul to survive the body?

None whatsoever. That is to say it doesn't survive as a separate entity. The things that make us what we are survive the same way they were there before we were born. The only difference is that when we're alive we have a brain - and, more specifically, an ego - that defines this concept of 'self'. When we're dead we don't have that.

We are an expression of the 'whole' in the same way that a wave is an expression of the water; not separate from the water, yet distinct from it in its own way.

Just my opinions though. I could be wrong.

[Segestan]

Hope your condition is well QED. The Soul...aka Real You ; is Not altered by mechanical problems. The personality is stable. The ability to remember to function physically most certainly is dependent on the well being of ones biology. What I mean by Real Self is the essence of your whole body , as a cosmic unit of force, of usable energy in this life. That's not to say that the mechanical nature of things , that is the finite nature of the body, is what your real self condition was or will be , only that in order that you might enjoy freedom from the confines of eternity became an time bound organized measure of designed energy...a human. The altering of ones mental condition , regardless of the pain or sorrow associated with that change, it is yet just another means of escapment of self will, another way of expression, done through the dynamic nature of living as a created being. The lose of ones data does not in the least change the truth of self being, only the relationships may become effected. The soul is so hungry to be born , that any life in time is a worthy life. A gift of unmeasurable worth. A gift from one soul to another. A gift of all souls to one soul. A gift of one soul to all souls.

Thanks to all, for the responses to my posting.
I really didn't expect my words to be believed. It is impossible to relay through words the nature of the soul. How do I profess to Know these things?
I prefer , if you will to leave my understanding of the soul to others imagination. I Do Know. I could provide a proof. But This will have to come at a latter date. The Forum board on the internet is hardly the correct theater for such a display. Should the Truth ever be revealed to humanity it would change the world for ever. I am Not at liberty to make that change apart of the human drama.

Sounds like a cop-out I know. But that's the Best I can answer ...honestly.


regards,

[McCulloch]

Segestan, do take a minute to re-read the rules . Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

I am quite at a loss as to why you are logged on to a debating site when

I Do Know. I could provide a proof. But This will have to come at a latter date. The Forum board on the internet is hardly the correct theater for such a display.

Perhaps you could describe such a proof or indicate who else has performed such proofs, preferably in front of objective expert witnesses.

Should the Truth ever be revealed to humanity it would change the world for ever. I am Not at liberty to make that change apart of the human drama.
Sounds like a cop-out I know. But that's the Best I can answer ...honestly.

It sounds like a cop-out because it is a cop-out. If you really allowed your profound insight to be objectively examined and tested, it would surely be found wanting.

[Segestan]

Very Well. My apology.

I do hereby regress from this topic.


regards,