Which is the bigger sin?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:16 pm

Which is worse, murder and other such atrocities we see and hear in the headlines all too often, or not believing in Jesus as the "only begotten Son of God" as John 3:18 seems to suggest.

That verse and others like it seem to suggest that not believing in Jesus as the "only begotten Son of God" is the worst sin in the world. Am I misreading this?

What if a person believes in God, and embraces His commandments in their heart and strives to live by them, but does not believe that Jesus is Divine?

Then what if an unspeakable murderer is "born again" in prison, does that person go straight to Heaven when he or she dies, and the Godly non-Christian does not?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:33 pm

[Replying to post 8 by bluethread]

I'm stretching Paul's metaphor and I do realize it. But doing so helps me to make my point.

I'm afraid I side with the Atheists on this one, and the Humanists. And along with the Jewish literature I have read, I believe that God considers how we treat each other as more important than any doctrine to be believed.

So murder is FAR worse than not believing in Jesus. Otherwise God would be sending devout and loving Jews, Muslims, Unitarians, Liberal (theologically liberal) Christians, Deists, Atheists, Agnostics to Hell, and only saving Fundamentalist Christians. That defies Reason, imo, and Reason, common sense is a gift from God.

What really bothers me (and some others here I think it is safe to say), is that many Fundamentalists seem to take smug delight at the prospect that their God is so cruelly exclusive.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:32 am

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 8 by bluethread]

I'm stretching Paul's metaphor and I do realize it. But doing so helps me to make my point.

I'm afraid I side with the Atheists on this one, and the Humanists. And along with the Jewish literature I have read, I believe that God considers how we treat each other as more important than any doctrine to be believed.

So murder is FAR worse than not believing in Jesus. Otherwise God would be sending devout and loving Jews, Muslims, Unitarians, Liberal (theologically liberal) Christians, Deists, Atheists, Agnostics to Hell, and only saving Fundamentalist Christians. That defies Reason, imo, and Reason, common sense is a gift from God.

What really bothers me (and some others here I think it is safe to say), is that many Fundamentalists seem to take smug delight at the prospect that their God is so cruelly exclusive.

I understand why the atheists see murder as worse, because most of them do not believe in an afterlife. For me it is like comparing apples and oranges, or I should say apples and apple trees. Rejecting apples is bad, but rejecting apple trees is worse. One can eat apples all day long, but if one does not believe in apple trees, then that one is dependent upon those who do for apples. One can observe various commandments all day long, but if one rejects the source of those commandments, one is dependent on those who do for their preservation.

Now, by belief I mean acknowledging and acting on that acknowledgment. Also, as I said before, names mean things, at least in the Scriptures. Yeshua means Adonai saves, so believing in His name means to believe in Adonai's Promise. That promise was given to Havah(Eve) in the garden. The rest of the Scriptures extrapolate on that Promise. How much of that extrapolation must one accept to be saved? I believe that it is as much as Adonai has revealed to that individual. If one does not know what Adonai considers just and unjust killing, one may commit the sin of murder and later be forgiven. However, if one knows what Adonai considers to be just and unjust killing, yet rejects that judgement and lives accordingly, that one has commited blasphemy. Thus, rejecting Adonai's ways and His Promise is the greater sin, because it incorporates the knowledge of good and evil.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:40 am

[Replying to post 12 by bluethread]

Rejecting Jesus/Yeshua as John represents him does not mean rejecting Adonai/JHVH. I doubt that many Jews consider their rejection of Jesus/Adonai a rejection of the Father.

I'm not an Atheist, and I consider murder a FAR worse sin than not believing in Jesus claims as portrayed in John's gospel. And also, the Jewish literature that I have read indicates God gives more importance to behavior (actions and attitudes) over belief.
And murder is just about the worst behavior an individual can do.

The Jewish premimum of action over belief is I think why Judaism as a whole is the most tolerant of the major three Abrahamic religions. Muslims seem to believe that Muslims alone are saved, Christians that only Christians are saved, but most Jewish thinkers that I am familiar with believe that an righteous person, no matter what their creed, will "have a share in the world to come".

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:07 pm

Which path leads to murder is my response?

I think the comparison is unfair because you are comparing an effect, murder, with a cause, following Jesus.

The effect of following Jesus is not murder.

What ideologies might lead one to considering murder a valid action?

If I value myself and mine more than you and yours. If I believe in my survival over yours. Those ideologies might lead to murder.

But basically this answers why not following Jesus is a bigger sin, because to my mind whatever ideology you do follow the chance of murder being a valid ideological response is greater.

help3434 · Post by **help3434** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:22 pm

[Replying to post 14 by Wootah]

Jainism is a religion that is centered on non violence. Are you saying we should adapt the ideology of Jainism since that will make us less likely to murder?

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:03 pm

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 12 by bluethread]

Rejecting Jesus/Yeshua as John represents him does not mean rejecting Adonai/JHVH. I doubt that many Jews consider their rejection of Jesus/Adonai a rejection of the Father.

I understand that. My point is that, for those who believe, Yeshua is the embodiment of Adonai. Also, given His real name and the things written of Him in the Apostolic Writings, one should view Him in a Jewish context.

I'm not an Atheist, and I consider murder a FAR worse sin than not believing in Jesus claims as portrayed in John's gospel.

I did not think that you were. I was just noting the reasoning of the atheist position.

And also, the Jewish literature that I have read indicates God gives more importance to behavior (actions and attitudes) over belief.
And murder is just about the worst behavior an individual can do.

The Jewish premimum of action over belief is I think why Judaism as a whole is the most tolerant of the major three Abrahamic religions. Muslims seem to believe that Muslims alone are saved, Christians that only Christians are saved, but most Jewish thinkers that I am familiar with believe that an righteous person, no matter what their creed, will "have a share in the world to come".

Yes, I understand that most of Judaism is based on pragmatics. I also agree that, from that prospective, it is correct that murder is among the most egregious of sins. However, there is a spiritual side to Judaism, which is greatly debated. In this area, blasphemy is viewed as a sin greater or lesser than murder, based on how orthodox one is.

The problem with the view that a righteous person, no matter what their creed, will "have a share in the world to come" involves what makes one righteous. This also is a greatly debated topic. According to the Apostolic Writings, righteousness is not and has never been truly attained by anyone but Yeshua. The Tanakh speaks of relative righteousness, but not absolute righteousness. Therefore, righteousness is imputed, based on the Promise.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:12 pm

help3434 wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Wootah]

Jainism is a religion that is centered on non violence. Are you saying we should adapt the ideology of Jainism since that will make us less likely to murder?

if you want to explain further on that create a thread and let's see. i love hearing more about other religions.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:35 pm

[Replying to post 14 by Wootah]

I never stated or even hinted that following Jesus leads to murder. Not sure where you got that.

Just that rejecting Jesus as Savior is NOT the worse sin one can commit, and highly debatable whether or not it is a sin at all.

And if I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that non Christians are more likely to murder in the name of their ideology than Christians?

Sure you can point to today's suicide bombers as examples, but how about in the Middle Ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition, The witch hunts of Europe and early America? I do not have statistics, but I would bet that Christians commited at least as many murders in the name of their ideology than the Muslims back then.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:50 pm

[Replying to post 16 by bluethread]

As to what constitutes a "righteous Gentile" in the eyes of Judaism? It is my understanding that if one follows the 7 Noahide laws, or embraces the God of Israel and his basic commandments, one is a "God Fearer" in their eyes and thus a righteous person.

And I do not accept the widely held premise that Jesus was sinless and perfect. I would point to the fact that Jesus subjected himself to John's baptism of repentance, (what would he have to repent from if her were perfect? And several instances in the NT, one of which has Jesus telling a would be follower to "let the dead bury their own dead"

If Jesus really said that, he was teaching that mourner to violate the fourth commandment and NOT honor his father. Seems a sinful act to me.

And calling the Pharisees "Vipers" after he teaches in the Sermon on the Mount that even being angry is sinful.

So much for Jesus supposed perfection? Or does "God incarnate" have a double standard. I thought he was supposed to be subject to the same temptations we all face, and overcome as a HUMAN?

Also, blasphemy is blasphemy, a sin of speech, not of what one believes, accepts or rejects.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:15 pm

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Wootah]

I never stated or even hinted that following Jesus leads to murder. Not sure where you got that.

Just that rejecting Jesus as Savior is NOT the worse sin one can commit, and highly debatable whether or not it is a sin at all.

And if I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that non Christians are more likely to murder in the name of their ideology than Christians?

Sure you can point to today's suicide bombers as examples, but how about in the Middle Ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition, The witch hunts of Europe and early America? I do not have statistics, but I would bet that Christians commited at least as many murders in the name of their ideology than the Muslims back then.

I never thought you did. I am just showing why the bigger sin is not following Jesus.

Can you tie those historical events to Christ? You see I think I can tie murder to evolution as a justifiable act within the ideology. Or we can tie murder as justifiable within the Islamic ideology.