The 'New' Number One Reason We Know there is No God . . . :D

[Danmark]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... traditions lists a very length assemblage of religions and cultures. I submit it is woefully incomplete. It is a fair assumption that the only ones that made it on the list are one's we have historical references to. This assertion is self defining. We can assume there were/are thousands more we are not aware of.

The question for debate is, "Why is YOUR particular version of "God" correct and the tens of thousands, or millions, of others wrong?

[Danmark]

One of the predictable arguments that comes up to counter that of the OP is 'the very fact that belief in a god is nearly universal shows there is a god; that our desire or belief in such a thing is self authenticating.'

I reject this argument. Many people, perhaps most, know they will die some day; yet they will also admit to a 'feeling' that this is not so, that they will live forever somehow; that their consciousness, their essence will survive the death of the body or that they will be 'raptured' before their body is destroyed. Wishful thinking is not a persuasive argument.

[dianaiad]

Are you going to argue with yourself in this thread, Danmark? I mean, really, if you are going to shoot down the perceived arguments before anybody can make one...

I will return the favor though. As you reject the argument that the plethora of different gods is evidence that deity exists, so do I reject your rejection. After all, even if some of us feel immortal, that generally goes away by the time one is twenty five or so; earlier if one is in the armed services or has a life threatening experience. Then one's mortality becomes rather clear.

Of course, if you are rejecting the argument because we all die, physically....er, that's a bit circular, don't you think? Begging the question a bit?

I think that the FACT that mankind has attempted to describe deity in many thousands of different ways is certainly evidence that, if deity doesn't actually exist, the concept is rather important to us. I hope that this is because there is a deity behind the concept. I believe there is. So...I reject your rejection.

Because I can.

[Danmark]

Are you going to argue with yourself in this thread, Danmark? I mean, really, if you are going to shoot down the perceived arguments before anybody can make one...

I will return the favor though. As you reject the argument that the plethora of different gods is evidence that deity exists, so do I reject your rejection. After all, even if some of us feel immortal, that generally goes away by the time one is twenty five or so; earlier if one is in the armed services or has a life threatening experience. Then one's mortality becomes rather clear.

Of course, if you are rejecting the argument because we all die, physically....er, that's a bit circular, don't you think? Begging the question a bit?

I think that the FACT that mankind has attempted to describe deity in many thousands of different ways is certainly evidence that, if deity doesn't actually exist, the concept is rather important to us. I hope that this is because there is a deity behind the concept. I believe there is. So...I reject your rejection.

Because I can.

Despite my obvious modesty I consider myself my most worthy opponent. I'll be 66 next month, and tho' I know I am likely to die [actuarial tables suggest I'm likely to live to the age of 89] before I reach the age of 100 [both my maternal grandparents lived beyond their 100th birthdays] I confess I retain this irrational belief I will not die. I know it is crazy. I know it is wrong. I can not argue for this belief. Yet I have it.

I had a great conversation with a friend the other day. He just showed up, with his characteristic pounding on my door. Among other topics we discussed this very thing. I was surprised he claimed to have absolutely no thought or belief he would not die. Maybe it is my religious upbringing. I don't really know. But I give ZERO credence to the argument that because the majority [even if it includes me] thinks it so, therefore it is.

BTW, I think whether we confess it or not, we non theists and atheists who were raised as true believers persist in forums like these in part because we are still trying to suppress the ghosts of the religions that we were raised in.

Post script:
I believe you have avoided the question: 'Why is YOUR religious belief correct, and all the others wrong?'

[Divine Insight]

The question for debate is, "Why is YOUR particular version of "God" correct and the tens of thousands, or millions, of others wrong?

Well, to begin with I would suggest that my version of "God" is correct simply because I don't attempt to put God in a box or define God in any specific way that can be pinned down to a technical dogma. And this is especially true in terms of claiming that "I know what God wants" whilst other people supposedly don't. I don't hold that position.

Secondly, I wouldn't say that all other religions or spiritual views of "God" are wrong. And therefore it's not a matter of saying "I'm right and someone else is wrong".

Having said this I do reject religions that do put God in a box and claim to know precisely what God wants (as you well know).

I don't see the existence of false religions as proof that there cannot be a God in general. Especially when my view of "God" is of a God who has absolutely no reason to care whether we believe in God or not.

If a God doesn't care whether you believe in it or not, then why would it care about religions? It would have no reason to intervene in anything that humans might do or dream up.

But I do feel that your observations should be highly problematic for those who believe in a "God in a Box" where their dogma defines God very rigidly in terms of what God wants, and all other dogmas are then necessarily false. That seems to be highly problematic to me.

I think this is especially true in the Abrahamic religions which are clearly at odds with each other yet they are all based on fables of the same God. The major factions of Christianity and Islam demand that God has very specific commandments and demands of humans, yet they are in grave opposition to precisely what these commands are.

It seems that the Jews often argue that their view of the scriptures is quite different. But considering that the whole shebang is founded on the Ten Commandments that this God supposedly gave to humans including "Worship me! Worship me! Worship me! Worship me!" as the first four of these commandments, it's really hard to see where any Jew can justify claiming that Judaism isn't about a God who is making very specific demands.

In my religion God makes absolutely no demands at all. Period.

[dianaiad]

Are you going to argue with yourself in this thread, Danmark? I mean, really, if you are going to shoot down the perceived arguments before anybody can make one...

I will return the favor though. As you reject the argument that the plethora of different gods is evidence that deity exists, so do I reject your rejection. After all, even if some of us feel immortal, that generally goes away by the time one is twenty five or so; earlier if one is in the armed services or has a life threatening experience. Then one's mortality becomes rather clear.

Of course, if you are rejecting the argument because we all die, physically....er, that's a bit circular, don't you think? Begging the question a bit?

I think that the FACT that mankind has attempted to describe deity in many thousands of different ways is certainly evidence that, if deity doesn't actually exist, the concept is rather important to us. I hope that this is because there is a deity behind the concept. I believe there is. So...I reject your rejection.

Because I can.

Despite my obvious modesty I consider myself my most worthy opponent. I'll be 66 next month, and tho' I know I am likely to die [actuarial tables suggest I'm likely to live to the age of 89] before I reach the age of 100 [both my maternal grandparents lived beyond their 100th birthdays] I confess I retain this irrational belief I will not die. I know it is crazy. I know it is wrong. I can not argue for this belief. Yet I have it.

I had a great conversation with a friend the other day. He just showed up, with his characteristic pounding on my door. Among other topics we discussed this very thing. I was surprised he claimed to have absolutely no thought or belief he would not die. Maybe it is my religious upbringing. I don't really know. But I give ZERO credence to the argument that because the majority [even if it includes me] thinks it so, therefore it is.

BTW, I think whether we confess it or not, we non theists and atheists who were raised as true believers persist in forums like these in part because we are still trying to suppress the ghosts of the religions that we were raised in.

Post script:
I believe you have avoided the question: 'Why is YOUR religious belief correct, and all the others wrong?'

Well, you old fart (I'll be 65 next month) it's like this: I believe that my religious belief is more correct than anybody else's. I don't believe that everybody else is entirely wrong, or that mine is entirely right. I just think that it mostly is. If I didn't, I'd believe something else and then I'd claim that THAT belief was at least mostly right and everybody else's is wrong.

Call it personal preference.

As for my personal belief about dying, well.....oddly enough I don't have any problems understanding that I'm going to do that, and although my family genes would prompt a centenial birthday, I doubt that I'll get there.

Don't want to, though, and

Doesn't bother me any, either.

[Danmark]

The question for debate is, "Why is YOUR particular version of "God" correct and the tens of thousands, or millions, of others wrong?

Well, to begin with I would suggest that my version of "God" is correct simply because I don't attempt to put God in a box or define God in any specific way that can be pinned down to a technical dogma. And this is especially true in terms of claiming that "I know what God wants" whilst other people supposedly don't. I don't hold that position.

Secondly, I wouldn't say that all other religions or spiritual views of "God" are wrong. And therefore it's not a matter of saying "I'm right and someone else is wrong".

Having said this I do reject religions that do put God in a box and claim to know precisely what God wants (as you well know).

I don't see the existence of false religions as proof that there cannot be a God in general. Especially when my view of "God" is of a God who has absolutely no reason to care whether we believe in God or not.

If a God doesn't care whether you believe in it or not, then why would it care about religions? It would have no reason to intervene in anything that humans might do or dream up.

But I do feel that your observations should be highly problematic for those who believe in a "God in a Box" where their dogma defines God very rigidly in terms of what God wants, and all other dogmas are then necessarily false. That seems to be highly problematic to me.

I think this is especially true in the Abrahamic religions which are clearly at odds with each other yet they are all based on fables of the same God. The major factions of Christianity and Islam demand that God has very specific commandments and demands of humans, yet they are in grave opposition to precisely what these commands are.

It seems that the Jews often argue that their view of the scriptures is quite different. But considering that the whole shebang is founded on the Ten Commandments that this God supposedly gave to humans including "Worship me! Worship me! Worship me! Worship me!" as the first four of these commandments, it's really hard to see where any Jew can justify claiming that Judaism isn't about a God who is making very specific demands.

In my religion God makes absolutely no demands at all. Period.

I confess that your thoughts on God pet my prejudices. I have long felt that the more specific and detailed the description of God and the rules and doctrines he supposedly imposes, the more likely he [or rather the representation of him] is likely to be a fraud, inaccurate and man made. I also confess that in part this belief of mine is intuitive. It just seems to me that if there is a God, he does not speak our language and he is not hung up about doctrines, rules, regulations about what kind of animal to sacrifice on what day, or what sexual practice between committed consensual adults, or what plants should be planted in what fields or any of the other complicated, detailed instructions that were invented by men to advance a particular idea for one place in one culture at one time. If there is a God he is far above all that nonsense and just wants us to be kind to each other... and maybe ... quit speaking for Him.

[Haven]

To me, the fact that there are a multitude of religions and god concepts -- all reflecting the cultural beliefs and human needs/predilections of their adherents -- is one of the strongest evidences for atheism. If there were a god/gods that was/were interested in communicating with humanity, it would be highly likely that people all over the world would know of him/her/it/them and would participate in similar or identical worship practices. Since this is not the case, the most rational explanation is that gods either have no interest in humanity or simply don't exist.

[Haven]

If there is a God he is far above all that nonsense and just wants us to be kind to each other... and maybe ... quit speaking for Him.

Intuitively speaking (so take this with a grain of salt), I think that any godlike being would have zero interest in a species as simple as humanity. We simply wouldn't register on its radar of interest.

[Zzyzx]

.

I think that the FACT that mankind has attempted to describe deity in many thousands of different ways is certainly evidence that, if deity doesn't actually exist, the concept is rather important to us.

I agree that the concept of, and belief in, a deity is important to humans.

Whether the deity actually exists or not does not seem important enough for many (most?) believers to investigate beyond assumption and assurance from preachers (plus possible emotional / psychological episodes).

Desire to believe is evidently a strong motivator.

Of course from logic we know that the popularity of an idea or the number who believe something true is no indication that it is true, valid, accurate. Wishful thinking is the same.