Homosexuality is 'not' a sin in the Bible..

[Aaron Lindahl]

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah]

Hi Wootah. If homosexuality is going to be equated as similar to having down-syndrome, or if you aren't aware that we are also part of Nature, and share much of our DNA with fellow living and aware species on this planet, I don't think any further discussion would be useful or beneficial between us.

Thank you,

Hi Aaron,

I think you should use this site for debating. I am not sure what opportunity you have to hear different views.

What do you object to in my reply? What makes one thing natural and the other unnatural?

As I said I understand the emotional pain but I am asking you to disconnect from it rationally debate the issue.

[Aaron Lindahl]

[Replying to Wootah]

Wootah, There is no emotional pain going on here. I simply realize that further discussion between us would not be beneficial since I've said all I have to say to you about the naturality and normality of homosexuality . Please respect that.

Forum Rules:

4. "Stay on the topic of debate. If a topic brings up another issue, start another thread."

6. "Do not debate in the discussion subforums. They are only for general discussion to get to know one other better."

One, you have gone off topic, topic being 'Homosexuality is not a sin in the Bible'.

Two, this was not posted on the 'debate' forum, but rather.. in the discussion subforum and I feel I know you enough now. I have another post that 'is' in the debate forum if you want to debate it.

Thank you

[Aaron Lindahl]

[Aaron Lindahl]

[puddleglum]

It goes against all common sense and reason to believe homosexuals are unnatural.

Why? The differences between male and female anatomy show that God intended for sex to be between a man and a woman. This should be obvious to anyone, regardless of his religion or lack of religion.

Homosexuality, homosexual desire, and homosexual sex are ‘not’ sins in and of themselves. To condemn or treat the way a person was born as a 'sin' is the gravest sin of all.

This is half true. It is wrong to condemn anyone for the way he was born and in fact the Bible doesn't do this. It is only homosexual acts that are condemned.

After God created Adam and Eve he established a practice called marriage, a permanent union between a man and a woman, and he restricted sexual practice to this union. Any sexual activity between two people who are not married to each other, whether they are a man and a woman or two members of the same sex, is a sin. Anyone who sincerely cares about the welfare of gay people should be warning them against sin rather than encouraging it. I have written about this subject in more detail here:

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/ ... -of-light/

[Aaron Lindahl]

It goes against all common sense and reason to believe homosexuals are unnatural.

Why? The differences between male and female anatomy show that God intended for sex to be between a man and a woman. This should be obvious to anyone, regardless of his religion or lack of religion.

Homosexuality, homosexual desire, and homosexual sex are ‘not’ sins in and of themselves. To condemn or treat the way a person was born as a 'sin' is the gravest sin of all.

This is half true. It is wrong to condemn anyone for the way he was born and in fact the Bible doesn't do this. It is only homosexual acts that are condemned.

After God created Adam and Eve he established a practice called marriage, a permanent union between a man and a woman, and he restricted sexual practice to this union. Any sexual activity between two people who are not married to each other, whether they are a man and a woman or two members of the same sex, is a sin. Anyone who sincerely cares about the welfare of gay people should be warning them against sin rather than encouraging it. I have written about this subject in more detail here:

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/ ... -of-light/

Hi Theophilus,

I have to disagree. Homosexuality is entirely natural, just as God created it. Homosexuality is quite common in the animal kingdom, especially among herding animals. Many animals solve conflicts by practicing same gender sex.The pairing of same sex couples had previously been observed in more than 1,500 species including penguins, dolphins and primates.

However, in the latest study it was found that the phenomenon is not only widespread but part of a necessary biological adaptation for the survival of the species.

On the Hawaiian island of Oahu, almost a third of the Laysan albatross population is raised by pairs of two females because of the shortage of males. Through these 'lesbian' unions, Laysan albatross are flourishing. Their existence had been dwindling before the adaptation was noticed. Dolphins form life-long same-sex pairs for life, while heterosexual encounters are fleeting.


I want to be clear that I'm not promoting polygamy, but rather, only providing Biblical examples of marriages that do not fall into the above definition of when you state that God created marriage as only one man and one woman. Your presumption on this matter is false:

As often as polygamy is recorded in Scripture, it is quite amazing how the Lord never condemns the practice. Both wicked men and righteous men were polygamous, and the Lord called neither to repent of it.

Lamech practiced polygyny (Genesis 4:19). Abraham likewise had more than one wife (Genesis 16:3-4; 25:6 "concubines"). Nahor, Abraham's brother, had both a wife and a concubine (Genesis 11:29; 22:20-24). Jacob was tricked into polygamy (Genesis 29:20-30), yet later he received two additional wives making a grand total of four wives (Genesis 30:4, 9). Esau took on a third wife hoping it might please his father Isaac (Genesis 28:6-9). Ashur the father of Tekoa had two wives (1 Chronicles 4:5). Michael, Obadiah, Joel, Ishiah, and those with them "had many wives" (1 Chronicles 7:3-4). Shaharaim had at least four wives, two of which he "sent away" (1 Chronicles 8:8-11). Caleb had two wives (1 Chronicles 2:18) and two concubines (1 Chronicles 2:46, 48). Gideon had many wives (Judges 8:30). Elkanah is recorded as having two wives, one of which was the godly woman Hannah (1 Samuel 1:1-2, 8-2:10).

David, "a man after God's own heart"(1 Samuel 13:14; Acts 13:22), had at least 8 wives and 10 concubines (1 Chronicles 1:1-9; 2 Samuel 6:23; 20:3). Solomon, who breached both Deuteronomy 7:1-4 and 17:14-17, had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:1-6). Rehoboam had eighteen wives and sixty concubines (2 Chronicles 11:21), and sought many wives for his sons (1 Chronicles 11:23). Abijah had fourteen wives (2 Chronicles 13:21). Ahab had more than one wife (1 Kings 20:7). Jehoram had wives who were taken captive (2 Chronicles 21:17). Jehoiada the priest gave king Joash two wives (2 Chronicles 24:1-3), and Jehoiachin had more than one wife (2 Kings 24:15). Polygamy is mentioned several times over in the Bible and never once is polygyny condemned.

Polygamy was governed, not forbidden:

Not only is polygamy not forbidden, but God actually gave laws concerning its practice. For example, in Deuteronomy 21 the Lord gave Moses a law regarding a man who had two wives.

If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the unloved, and if the firstborn son is of her who is unloved, then it shall be, on the day he bequeaths his possessions to his sons, that he must not bestow firstborn status on the son of the loved wife in preference to the son of the unloved, the true firstborn. But he shall acknowledge the son of the unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his. (Deuteronomy 21:15-17)

This law does not condemn the man who has two wives. It simply governs how he deals with the offspring.

Immediately before this passage, we find Deuteronomy 21:10-14.

When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the cloths of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her.

Here the Lord makes no mention as to whether "you" are already married or not. He simply gives the Israelites the permission to marry a captive girl and how to deal with her. This law applies to either a single man or a married man, and in its application of a married man, the Lord is giving permission for polygamy. In fact, this passage rests in that very context, because the very next statement after verse 14 is, "If a man has two wives, . . ." (Deuteronomy 21:15).

Another interesting law in the light of polygamy is found in Deuteronomy 25:5-10.

If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the widow of the dead man shall not be married to a stranger outside the family; her husband's brother shall go in to her, take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her. And it shall be that the firstborn son which she bears will succeed to the name of his dead brother, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. But if the man does not want to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate to the elders, and say, "My husband's brother refuses to raise up a name to his brother in Israel; he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother." Then the elders of his city shall call him and speak to him. But if he stands firm and says, "I do not want to take her," then his brother's wife shall come to him in the presence of the elders, remove his sandal from his foot, spit in his face, and answer and say, "So shall it be done to the man who will not build up his brother's house." And his name shall be called in Israel, "The house of him who had his sandal removed."

This passage requires the living brother to marry his brother's wife, and there is absolutely no statement whatsoever in regards to the living brother's marital status. He could be single, or he could already be married. The passage says nothing either way. All that is said is,

If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the widow of the dead man shall not be married to a stranger outside the family; her husband's brother shall go in to her, take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.

If the living brother was already married, then we have here a command from God for a man to have a polygamous relationship. If the living brother was already married, in order to obey the Lord, the man would be required to have more than one wife. If he refused to do so, he would be spit in the face and bear reproach (Deuteronomy 25:9-10).

Similarly, if a married man were to have sex with a virgin who was not betrothed, he would be required to marry her, and thus end up with another wife.

If a man entices a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall surely pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the bride-price of virgins. (Exodus 22:16-17; see also Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

Here again there is no specification on whether the man is married or not. Therefore, this law would apply to both a single or married man.

Another law regarding polygamy can be found in Leviticus 18:18. Here the Lord forbids, not polygamy, but rather the taking on of a rival sister while the other is still alive.

Nor shall you take a woman as a rival to her sister, to uncover her nakedness while the other is alive.

Finally, there is one passage in Deuteronomy that some may think condemns polygamy, but, the truth of the matter is, it actually allows it. For the king, Deuteronomy 17:14-17 places a very general limit to the practice of polygamy.

When you come to the land which the Lord your God is giving you, and possess it and dwell in it, and say, "I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me," you shall surely set a king over you whom the Lord your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the Lord has said to you, "You shall not return that way again." Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.

This law is given for the king of the land. There is no such law concerning the common Israelite. In other words, if a rich Israelite were to multiply wives for himself, he would not be breaching this law or any other command from God, because no such command exists. This law does not apply to everyone. It only applies to the king.

Now, does the law say the king cannot have more than one wife? No, it does not. In fact, please note there are three other things the king is not to "multiply for himself," horses, silver, and gold. Could he have a few horses? Certainly, David had at least 100 horses (2 Samuel 8:4), and in this, he did not disobey God (1 Kings 15:5). Could a king have some silver and gold? Indeed, David had silver and gold (2 Samuel 12:30; 24:24), and he did not disobey God (1 Kings 15:5). Likewise, could a king have a few wives? Yes he could. David had at least 8 wives and 10 concubines (2 Samuel 3:14; 15:16; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9), and was not disobedient against the Lord in doing so; as 1 Kings 15:5 says,

David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

As for a king who breached Deuteronomy 17:17, Solomon is the classic example. He had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3). Yet, even though Solomon obviously multiplied wives to himself, the Lord condemns Solomon, in particular, for his marriage of foreign women (1 Kings 11:1-2; Deuteronomy 7:1-4) and the resultant idolatry (1 Kings 11:4). God mentions Solomon's multiple wives (1 Kings 11:3), but the focus of God's anger is upon Solomon allowing himself to be seduced by his wives (1 Kings 11:9-10). The focus is not upon how many wives he possessed, but rather upon the marriage of foreign women and how they seduced him into idolatry.

Interesting to note in this polygamous context is the statement about David in 1 Kings 11:6.

Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as did his father David.

Even though David had at least 8 wives and ten concubines, it still says that David fully followed the Lord.

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 16 by Aaron Lindahl]

People in the Bible didn't always follow God's commands regarding marriage but that doesn't change the fact that it is intended to be a relationship between only one man and one woman. And this is irrelevant to the main point of this thread, the claim that homosexuality is natural. And the fact that some animals practice homosexuality doesn't mean that humans are allowed to do so. Our moral standards are based on what God has commanded, not on the behavior of animals.

[Aaron Lindahl]

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 16 by Aaron Lindahl]

People in the Bible didn't always follow God's commands regarding marriage but that doesn't change the fact that it is intended to be a relationship between only one man and one woman. And this is irrelevant to the main point of this thread, the claim that homosexuality is natural. And the fact that some animals practice homosexuality doesn't mean that humans are allowed to do so. Our moral standards are based on what God has commanded, not on the behavior of animals.

If it's irrelevant to this thread, then why did you bring up the subject?

You were the one who brought it up. I was merely responding to what you said.