it it ok...

[reggie jax]

i know it says adultery is wrong but sex outside of marraige is adultery so that ship's sailed already. what i wanna know is, if there's a really hot girl, and she supposedly cheats on her husband already, is it ok to do the nasty with her, considering she's already a cheater?

[ENIGMA]

Quick fun...

I think that secular morality cannot offer you any advice here. Your desire for sex with a hot girl is not going to impact the human race all that much, so I don't see how they can justify a moral code in this situation. But, this is what I've been saying all along. If humanity became largely atheistic, out go many of the moral codes that make up society.

Ah, but society is a human construct, one specified means of getting around the free-rider problem inherent in living and interacting within a network of many other humans. Very little impacts the human race all that much nowadays, however the potential of massive parallel processing of such small impacts is enormous, and thus such a construct as society is necessary.

I would argue that adultery is not just a violation of an invented moral code, but moral codes actually exist. If you violate them, then you'll eventually experience a hysteresis effect that comes from breaking those codes. How and when might be in doubt, but the effect is certain.

Murder is an almost universal violation of societal moral codes solely because of its irrevocable negative effect. If the effect was not irrevocable, then it would unlikely be considered a significant violation. Anyone who has played any first-person shooter should understand at least that much.

My recommendation is to seek spiritual truths and hold onto them with all that you have by living them each and every day. This way of life also has a hysteresis effect that not only improves your life, but improves all those who come in contact with you.

Except for witches, who you should probably kill. But they probably deserved it anyway, so it all works out in the end.

[harvey1]

Very little impacts the human race all that much nowadays, however the potential of massive parallel processing of such small impacts is enormous, and thus such a construct as society is necessary.

Necessary for the society, but the individual behavior constantly deviates from the overall health of society even though it improves the individuals welfare. Look at Enron, they got caught, but thousands of people are lining their pockets at other people's expense who don't get caught. Those individuals are definitely better off in a secular view of the world.

Except for witches, who you should probably kill. But they probably deserved it anyway, so it all works out in the end.

No, everybody ought to seek God and spiritual meaning. My wish is that people will reject the primitive yearnings of their natural mind and direct themselves to seeking and serving God. We all have free will, so we can do it. Resist the natural mind! Don't just laugh or scoof about it--just do it. Be a spirit led person.

[harvey1]

I have no moral problem with two adult consenting people participating in an activity which has no harmful effects on others.

Well there's the pitch. How do you know the effect any immoral action has on others? I know of someone who was exactly in the same boat, they justified that action because of this very reason, and it turned out horribly for everyone (the husband never even found out as far as I know). So, let's throw these secular humanist morals in the trash bin and let's stick with evolving religious truths. Even a naturalist ought to agree since whether you think religion is natural born or born from above, it is still the outcome of millions of years of human evolution. It doesn't make sense to re-write moral codes that evolved over millions of years... at least not as if you are writing a novel.

[ENIGMA]

Very little impacts the human race all that much nowadays, however the potential of massive parallel processing of such small impacts is enormous, and thus such a construct as society is necessary.

Necessary for the society, but the individual behavior constantly deviates from the overall health of society even though it improves the individuals welfare. Look at Enron, they got caught, but thousands of people are lining their pockets at other people's expense who don't get caught. Those individuals are definitely better off in a secular view of the world.

No such act yields more benefit to those who partake of such actions than the benefit inherently gained by being a member of the society. Thus by acting against societal rules designed to preserve the benefits of society, they are ultimately acting against their benefit. Their attempts to offload this harm to others in society should be dealt with accordingly.

When one is in the open ocean, it is far better to be in a ship constructed by yourself and many others than stuck on whatever small bit of driftwood you can scrounge for yourself. While one can gain some personal resources by mining the ship's hull from the inside, ultimately it is against everyone's interest for you to do so.

Except for witches, who you should probably kill. But they probably deserved it anyway, so it all works out in the end.

No, everybody ought to seek God and spiritual meaning. My wish is that people will reject the primitive yearnings of their natural mind and direct themselves to seeking and serving God.

...by killing witches. We are in agreement, no?

[McCulloch]

How do you know the effect any immoral action has on others?

I do not pre-suppose that a particular action is immoral. It becomes immoral by reason of the probable effect on others. Do you have a better way to determine the morality of an action. That's right. Ask God. But God does not talk to me. So I have to ask others who claim that God talked to them, ignoring the fact that we generally presume that people who claim that God talks to them are crazy. No, no, no. Ask the God of the Bible, the other gods are false. But don't ask the God of the fundamentalists!

I know of someone who was exactly in the same boat, they justified that action because of this very reason, and it turned out horribly for everyone (the husband never even found out as far as I know).

I am not quite sure which same boat you are talking about. If you mean our friend jax's boat, you may notice that I did not say that he should go ahead until he was reasonably sure that he was not hurting anyone. He himself indicated that he was not sure. So my advice to your hypothetical someone who was in the same boat, would be to hold off.

So let me presume that your someone (probably two someones) in this boat, preceded to have sex when at least one of them was married because they thought that no one would get hurt. You were not that specific about how it went horribly for everyone. I'm thinking not too horribly since the husband did not find out. My question is whether reasonable people could have predicted the non-specific horrible consequence. If so, then they probably should not have been doing whatever they did. If not, how is that any different from any other surprise that may happen to anyone doing anything.

However, you did remind me of an ethical principle that I forgot to share with reggie. If you have to keep the fact that you are doing it a secret, then it probably is wrong.

So, let's throw these secular humanist morals in the trash bin and let's stick with evolving religious truths. Even a naturalist ought to agree since whether you think religion is natural born or born from above, it is still the outcome of millions of years of human evolution. It doesn't make sense to re-write moral codes that evolved over millions of years... at least not as if you are writing a novel.

I have to agree with you to a point. I have a problem understanding what is meant by "evolving religious truths" since most religions in my experience are based on divinely revealed truth that are rather fixed and not evolving at all. However, the current set of generally accepted ethical values are the product of a long evolution and should not be thrown out without any consideration.