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Justin108
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:30 pm  If Christianity didn't make pretty promises... Reply with quote

If Christianity didn't promise heaven, threaten hell, and claim the creator of the Universe had your back, would Christianity have any followers at all?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:24 am
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Elijah John wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

Elijah John wrote:

Perhaps...Judaism does not promise Heaven per se, nor does it threaten hell. Judaism still has devoted followers.

The Jews still believe God has their back and that they are God's chosen people. They believe that being devoted to God will bring their people a good life


So everything (clubs, orginazations, societies, etc.) including religions must have something positive to offer, else why would anyone follow. True, but what is your point?

My point is that truth is not a matter of preference. To believe something because you expect to get something out of it makes no rational sense. Religion, being a claim about metaphysical reality, cannot say "my religion is true because you get to go to heaven". That's just not how truth works

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:25 am
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Justin108 wrote:

If Christianity didn't promise heaven, threaten hell, and claim the creator of the Universe had your back, would Christianity have any followers at all?


Yes. Liberal forms of Christianity don't subscribe to any of these ideas, and have existed for a good century or more.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:14 pm
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historia wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

If Christianity didn't promise heaven, threaten hell, and claim the creator of the Universe had your back, would Christianity have any followers at all?


Yes. Liberal forms of Christianity don't subscribe to any of these ideas, and have existed for a good century or more.

What exactly do liberal forms of Christianity believe?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:58 pm
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historia wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

If Christianity didn't promise heaven, threaten hell, and claim the creator of the Universe had your back, would Christianity have any followers at all?


Yes. Liberal forms of Christianity don't subscribe to any of these ideas, and have existed for a good century or more.


I think that is a bit of an over-generalization...Yes, most Liberal forms of Christianity do not threaten hell or proclaim that theirs is the "only way to Heaven" but many do preach Heaven, or at least Heaven on earth (peaceful, compassionate and faith-filled lives) in the lives of their individual adherants, and leave open the prospect for an eternal Heaven. Some more than others.

Many Liberal denominations still have their Creeds, for example, including Episcopalian, Methodist and Lutheran, and many believe them, with varying degrees of literalism.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:13 pm
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Justin108 wrote:

historia wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

If Christianity didn't promise heaven, threaten hell, and claim the creator of the Universe had your back, would Christianity have any followers at all?


Yes. Liberal forms of Christianity don't subscribe to any of these ideas, and have existed for a good century or more.

What exactly do liberal forms of Christianity believe?


Liberal forms of Christianity take the Bible seriously, but not literally.

The believe in taking into account ancient culture and history for context, in interpreting the Bible.

Most believe in God the Father in some way or another, but do not believe that Jesus himself is God...but a man possessed in great measure by the Spirit of God, the Father. So needless to say they do not believe the Trinity is revealed, literal truth, but see it as a theological construct useful for some to understand God's transcendance as well as His immanence.

Most (but not all) TEND to be politically liberal as well as theologically liberal.

And there is more, but suffice it to say that they do not march in lock-step, but take the Protestant imperative of the "priesthood of all believers" seriously and claim for themselves the freedom to interpret the Bible according to their own lights, conscience and God-given Reason.

I understand that the Episcopal Church stands on three basic principles, a three legged stool...Tradition, Reason, and the Bible...not necessarily in that order.

MOST theologically Liberal forms of Christianity value Reason, a whole lot. As Robin Williams used to say, one of the top ten reasons to become an Episcopalian is that you can "still believe in dinosaurs".
Wink

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:31 pm
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Justin108 wrote:

Elijah John wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

Elijah John wrote:

Perhaps...Judaism does not promise Heaven per se, nor does it threaten hell. Judaism still has devoted followers.

The Jews still believe God has their back and that they are God's chosen people. They believe that being devoted to God will bring their people a good life


So everything (clubs, orginazations, societies, etc.) including religions must have something positive to offer, else why would anyone follow. True, but what is your point?

My point is that truth is not a matter of preference. To believe something because you expect to get something out of it makes no rational sense. Religion, being a claim about metaphysical reality, cannot say "my religion is true because you get to go to heaven". That's just not how truth works


It is my contention that EVERY major positive religion contains Truth. Usually, fewer claims a religon has, the more truth is unencumbered by the elaborations of myth, creeds and dogma.

Deism, seems to me the truest of the bunch. But since their are no Deist churches, per se, I try to find the Deistic elements in my own Catholicism...no easy task. Yes, I would be considered a heretic for my non-orthodox beliefs.

The "liturgy of the Word" portion of the Mass means more to me than the "liturgy of the Eucharist."

And we religious types often feel the need to worship with others. And since the RCC is my family's Church, I try to "bloom where I am planted"

If I were striving for uncompromising, absolute truth, there would be a "Church of Christian Deism" but there is not.

So I try to find the Truth at the core of my own,Tradition, the Judaic elements of the RCC.
.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:38 pm
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Elijah John wrote:

It is my contention that EVERY major positive religion contains Truth. Usually, fewer claims a religon has, the more truth is unencumbered by the elaborations of myth, creeds and dogma.

EJ, I agree. However, don't many ideologies we regard as despicable contain some truth?

Thus, if one abides by truth, doesn't Agnosticism make more sense than any of the religions (including even Deism)?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 18: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:56 pm
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Zzyzx wrote:

.
Elijah John wrote:

It is my contention that EVERY major positive religion contains Truth. Usually, fewer claims a religon has, the more truth is unencumbered by the elaborations of myth, creeds and dogma.

EJ, I agree. However, don't many ideologies we regard as despicable contain some truth?

Thus, if one abides by truth, doesn't Agnosticism make more sense than any of the religions (including even Deism)?


Agnosticism as in "we don't know"? Seems to me that truth is something tangible to believe in, and agnosticticism's only "truth", by definition, is an open mind.

Despicable ideologies, if they contain ANY truth, have perverted it. What truth, for example, does Nazi-ism proclaim? IF there is a core of truth in belief systems such as these, they have distorted it beyond any sense of decency and benevolence.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 19: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:39 pm
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Elijah John wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

historia wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

If Christianity didn't promise heaven, threaten hell, and claim the creator of the Universe had your back, would Christianity have any followers at all?


Yes. Liberal forms of Christianity don't subscribe to any of these ideas, and have existed for a good century or more.

What exactly do liberal forms of Christianity believe?


Liberal forms of Christianity take the Bible seriously, but not literally.

The believe in taking into account ancient culture and history for context, in interpreting the Bible.

Most believe in God the Father in some way or another, but do not believe that Jesus himself is God...but a man possessed in great measure by the Spirit of God, the Father. So needless to say they do not believe the Trinity is revealed, literal truth, but see it as a theological construct useful for some to understand God's transcendance as well as His immanence.

Most (but not all) TEND to be politically liberal as well as theologically liberal.

And there is more, but suffice it to say that they do not march in lock-step, but take the Protestant imperative of the "priesthood of all believers" seriously and claim for themselves the freedom to interpret the Bible according to their own lights, conscience and God-given Reason.

I understand that the Episcopal Church stands on three basic principles, a three legged stool...Tradition, Reason, and the Bible...not necessarily in that order.

MOST theologically Liberal forms of Christianity value Reason, a whole lot. As Robin Williams used to say, one of the top ten reasons to become an Episcopalian is that you can "still believe in dinosaurs".
Wink

So to be clear, they do not believe in an afterlife?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 20: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:48 pm
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Elijah John wrote:

Deism, seems to me the truest of the bunch. But since their are no Deist churches, per se, I try to find the Deistic elements in my own Catholicism...no easy task.

- I fail to see the need. Why must you find elements of Deism in Catholicism? Why don't you just leave them separate? Why is it so hard just to abandon Catholicism if a more rational alternative is available?
- The fact that you actively try to find Deism in Catholicism is intellectually dishonest. If you try to look for the truth of a subject with a pre-established conclusion, finding that conclusion was not the result of critical observation but of confirmation bias. If I read the Bible with the pre-established conclusion that God was an alien from a different planet that made an effort to advance the human race then I will find that in the Bible. This does not mean it is there.

Elijah John wrote:
And we religious types often feel the need to worship with others. And since the RCC is my family's Church, I try to "bloom where I am planted"

So you admit to deliberately interpreting the Bible to fit what you want it to say in order to belong?

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