The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christianity

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liamconnor
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The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christianity

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Post by liamconnor »

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Re: The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christian

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Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Re: The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christian

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Re: The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christian

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Post by Divine Insight »

liamconnor wrote: Question: Do you think this is a good/plausible explanation for Christianity's origins?
No, not at all.

To the contrary, you are attempting to include the Christian Gospels as "needing" to be explained in every claim they make. That's your mistake right there.

IMHO, the best explanation for the origins of Christianity is that they started as superstitious rumors about some events that may or may not have occurred. From there they grew to become more elaborate rumors over many years. And this is in perfect harmony with what we actually see in the time line of the writing of the Gospels.

Therefore you demand that all these rumors must be accounted for holds no merit. And therefore it is a straw man position.

This was C. S. Lewis' mistake. C. S. Lewis proclaim a false dichotomy as well. He proclaimed that either Jesus would need to be an absolute raving lunatic or he was the son of God. But that's a false dichotomy precisely because C. S. Lewis is only considering a Jesus character who actually said all the things attributed to him in the Gospels as if they were the "Gospel Truth".

That's the part you need to drop.

Once we realize that the Gospels are fabricated rumors that were constructed over many years there is no longer any reason to demand that ever word in the Gospels must be accounted for as if it is the "Gospel Truth".

To the contrary, once we recognize these writings are fabricated exaggerated rumors there's no longer any need to trust anything they have to say.

So here's my "Best Non-Divine Explanation for Christianity".

And this is radically different from yours.

1. There probably was some sort of wandering preacher named Jesus (or whatever)
2. He probably did reject orthodox Judaism as the Gospel rumors have him doing.
3. He probably did argue with the Jewish Chief Priests and publicly call them hypocrites as the Gospel rumors have him doing.
4. He probably was executed for apostasy in some horrible fashion.

From this event rumors started and were methodically built up over some decades after this event.

Your approach where you make out like every rumor within the Gospels must be taken to be true and explained, is simply unnecessary. The bulk of those rumors were no doubt made up and therefore no explanation for them is necessary.

In other words, you include the tomb being discovered empty as needing to be explained. I don't. I see no need to explain that to be anything more than a belated rumor. There's no good reason to believe that any actual tomb had ever even been discovered to be empty.

So the very simple explanation that all of these writings are nothing more than exaggerated rumors is sufficient.

There is simply no further need to explain them.

So the "BEST" non-divine explanation is that they are nothing more than exaggerated rumors. Period.

No further explanation is required and everything that needs to be explained has been explained.

So we're done. And there's nothing left unexplained.

They were never anything more than superstitious exaggerated rumors. Period.

That's all they ever were. Possibly even crafted by people who were indeed trying to create a believable religion. So motivation for the exaggerated rumors is explained as well.

Dismissing them as nothing more than exaggerated rumors works just fine.
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Re: The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christian

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[Replying to post 4 by liamconnor]
To make this clearer: I will say that the fact you reject this explanation leaves only ONE possibility--supernatural intervention. EITHER YOU ACCEPT THIS, OR THAT.
False, false false false.

Just because Danmark (or myself) reject your hypothesis that a non-disciple took the body DOES NOT MEAN that the ONLY other possibility is the supernatural.
As Danmark has repeatedly explained (or is it ToTN?, it's early morning and I forget which one is which), the gospels themselves point out that the last people known to have the body of Jesus...were his disciples. At no point is a non-disciple mentioned as having possession.

I reject fully the assertion "Because you reject this non-miraculous explanation, this leaves the supernatural as the only possibility". No, that is NOT how it works. Are you unintentionally quoting, in some round about way, Sherlock Holmes?
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Re: The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christian

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Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]
This was C. S. Lewis' mistake. C. S. Lewis proclaim a false dichotomy as well. He proclaimed that either Jesus would need to be an absolute raving lunatic or he was the son of God.
Just to correct you DI, Lewis proclaimed a tri-chotomy, a false one. Famously known as Lunatic, Liar or Lord.
Lewis of course either didn't think about or just shrugged off the fourth possible L - Legend.
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christian

Post #16

Post by Divine Insight »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 4 by liamconnor]
To make this clearer: I will say that the fact you reject this explanation leaves only ONE possibility--supernatural intervention. EITHER YOU ACCEPT THIS, OR THAT.
False, false false false.

Just because Danmark (or myself) reject your hypothesis that a non-disciple took the body DOES NOT MEAN that the ONLY other possibility is the supernatural.
As Danmark has repeatedly explained (or is it ToTN?, it's early morning and I forget which one is which), the gospels themselves point out that the last people known to have the body of Jesus...were his disciples. At no point is a non-disciple mentioned as having possession.

I reject fully the assertion "Because you reject this non-miraculous explanation, this leaves the supernatural as the only possibility". No, that is NOT how it works. Are you unintentionally quoting, in some round about way, Sherlock Holmes?
We can't even be sure that any body was ever missing in the first place. The whole "missing body" claim may be nothing more than superstitious rumors.

liamconnor is acting like there was definitely a missing body and we must account for it. But that's baloney from the get go. We have no reason to believe that there ever was a missing body in the first place. And even if there was there's nothing supernatural about a missing body.

Let's not forget that in these Gospel rumors it is also claimed that God spoke from a cloud. Are we going to have to account for that too like as if that actually happened just because the claim is made within these rumors?

How about the multitude of saints who were jostled from their graves due to an earthquake that supposedly occurred after Jesus gave up the ghost? And then these zombie saints went into the Holy City and showed themselves to the people there, except that city was fully of Jews and the Jews don't believe a word of these rumors.

If the Jews were satisfied that these Christian claims are nothing but rumors why should anyone else suspect otherwise? They were there at the time these things were claimed to have happened and they didn't believe any of it.
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Re: The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christian

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Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense on Sun May 01, 2016 4:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Re: The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christian

Post #18

Post by Divine Insight »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]
This was C. S. Lewis' mistake. C. S. Lewis proclaim a false dichotomy as well. He proclaimed that either Jesus would need to be an absolute raving lunatic or he was the son of God.
Just to correct you DI, Lewis proclaimed a tri-chotomy, a false one. Famously known as Lunatic, Liar or Lord.
Lewis of course either didn't think about or just shrugged off the fourth possible L - Legend.
Well, lunatic and liar can be lumped together as far as I'm concerned. My main point is that C. S. Lewis still refused to consider that the whole shebang could be nothing but unreliable rumors. Both lunatic and liar assume that everything attributed to Jesus in the Gospels where things that Jesus actually said.

So C. S. Lewis never really considered the "Gospels" to be anything other than the "Gospel Truth" at least in terms of what they claimed Jesus said.

Once we recognize that they are undependable rumors, there's no longer any need to view them as the "Gospel Truth".

Even if there was an actual historical "Jesus" who was the fodder for the gospel rumors that doesn't mean that everything he is quoted as having said in the Gospels he actually said in real life.

In short, even if Jesus was a real person, the "Jesus" portrayed in the Gospels is still potentially largely made up.
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Re: The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christian

Post #19

Post by Divine Insight »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote: My explanation indicates that the Jewish authorities took possession of a closed tomb which proved to be empty the next day because the disciples, who were already in possession of the body and had every legal right, moved the body elsewhere for burial. Your explanation for the empty tomb is that the corpse came back to life, left the tomb, and subsequently flew away. Your explanation is so liberal and unrealistic that it is essentially non functional. It is the least likely of all possibilities.
Is there really any need to "explain" Jewish authorities taking possession of an empty tomb? :-k

Has this been recorded by Jewish Historians outside of the Christian Bible?

Do the Jews even concede that there really was an empty tomb mystery as the Christians claim?

If not, then why should this claim made only in the Gospels even need an explanation at all?

Who says it ever happened other than the authors of Gospel rumors?

Why should anyone need to explain the Gospel rumors?

The Gospel rumors claim that God spoke from a cloud proclaiming that Jesus is his son. Do we need to explain that too? :-k

My explanation is simple. No God ever spoke from any clouds, it was all a made up superstitious fib.

The Gospel rumors claim that saints were jostled from their graves and got up and walk out to go into the Holy City to show themselves to the people there. Do we need to explain that too? :-k

I don't think so. Just dismissing it as having never happened is more than sufficient.
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Re: The Best "Non-Divine" Explanation of Christian

Post #20

Post by Divine Insight »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote: My explanation indicates that the Jewish authorities took possession of a closed tomb which proved to be empty the next day because the disciples, who were already in possession of the body and had every legal right, moved the body elsewhere for burial. Your explanation for the empty tomb is that the corpse came back to life, left the tomb, and subsequently flew away. Your explanation is so liberal and unrealistic that it is essentially non functional. It is the least likely of all possibilities.
By the way, why should the Jewish Authorities give a hoot about a bunch of rebel apostates who might claim that Jesus rose from the dead?

If they made that claim wouldn't they be asked to back up the claim by producing this raised Jesus?

What are they going to say, "Oh we can't do that because he flew off to heaven".

Yeah right. :roll:

There is no way that the Jewish Authorities would have needed to worry about these apostates claiming that their leader rose from the dead if they can't produce this risen leader.

Claiming that he then flew off to heaven would have been laughed at.

The very idea that the Jewish Authorities would have been worried about such rumors of a risen Jesus makes no sense in the real world. They would have gladly waited for someone to produce this risen Jesus. And if that couldn't be done it would be nothing but a laughing stock anyway.

So why would the Jewish Authorities have worried about such nonsense?
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