Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[Zzyzx]

.

I will key on this as defining the core of the matter:

Knowledge of the origin of the universe is of no importance in decisions in my life in the real world. My decisions are not influenced by speculations about such things.

I just don't think you can point to a statement that better captures the divide between the theist and the non-theist.

Agreed. Many Theists seem to NEED / depend upon / base decisions upon an unverified CLAIM that their favorite god (among thousands proposed) created the universe.

I and many others do NOT need information about the origin of the universe as a basis for our life decisions. We can base decisions on observation / study / experience of the real world we inhabit. No gods required.

Let me rephrase it, for clarity:

You are not qualified to rephrase my position. Attempting to do so is pompous as well as a dishonorable debate tactic.

No wonder no one wants to address what they propose to believe in, if they insist on rejecting the truths expressed in Scripture.

Truths expressed in scripture? Long-dead bodies coming back to life, donkeys and snakes conversing in human language, Earth ceasing rotation, worldwide flood to the tops of mountains, star stopping over a given location? Are those the truths?

Or why it makes any difference if they believe... whatever it is -- or not.

Many of us prefer to base decisions on what can be demonstrated to be true " NOT on what storytellers (ancient or modern) CLAIM is true but cannot verify.

It is because they, in a very real sense, have nothing worth talking about.

Opinion noted. Thus, do only Theists have something worth talking about?

[theophile]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Apologies for the delay in responding. Some general thoughts...

We can't (IMO) look for verifiable evidence of biblical teachings in the form that we would typically require to give us confidence in their historic reality. It's not like we're going to find a nail that can be carbon-dated and analyzed to the right time and place, and with DNA on it that doesn't fit the human genome but is something more divine... We're not going to find it and hopefully don't need to either...

Implicit in what I was saying before (care less about the content right now) is that we shouldn't be concerned with verifying specific biblical events or characters as historic. Rather, what we need to do is identify the PATTERNS that are present in the bible, and compare those to what we've seen in our lives and broader history to determine their credibility. For example, the question is less whether Jesus actually rose from the dead and more what the pattern is behind this specific story / event, and whether we can affirm it (the pattern, not the event) as evident and believable.

The one pattern (situation : response) that I strongly suggested in my previous post was this:

Situation: Presence of totalitarian regimes that seek control and homogeneity and in the process eradicate differences, creative possibilities, and freedom..
Response: God breaks open the rule to disperse the people, reintroduce difference and the creative possibilities and freedoms that flow from it.

We see this pattern time and again in the bible: Genesis 1, Babel, the flood, Egypt, the law (which Jesus works to break open), death (when Jesus is resurrected), Rome...

If we accept this pattern, there are two follow up questions that I think we need to ask to determine believability.

1) Does this pattern fit our hope and expectation of God? Irrespective of whether God exists or not, is this how we would want a God that we could believe in to act? Defining, if you will, the spirit of God? If not, then what the bible depicts is not believable...

2) Is this pattern evident in history? Have we, for example, witnessed oppressive orders that shut down possibilities getting broken open? Not the specific ones that the bible depicts, but real, historic examples? If yes, can we not see the spirit of God at work here? In actual history?

I don't want to make the leap from this "spirit of God" (i.e., ruach Elohim, which is all we really see from the beginning...) to positing some super-being named God that originally issued it. To me, the spirit is existence enough. Also, more importantly, my goal in this post is to shift the perspective of what counts as verifiable evidence. My view, to sum it up, is that we need to concern ourselves less on verifying specifics, and more on identifying the patterns of God's action (defining the spirit of God), evaluating those patterns against our hopes and expectations of God, and then looking to history and the world for evidence of God's spirit in action.

(More importantly, although off-purpose for this post, is that we become sources of that spirit in the world as per our original calling as imago dei.)

[arian]

Answering the question requires "faith" and cannot be proved / shown to be true and accurate. That is an admission that verifiable evidence does NOT exist -- exactly my point.

Then I have answered your question " conclusive evidence does not exist. I guess thats supposed to be important to some people " just not me.

Discussion of "faith based" beliefs may be acceptable in church or in Holy Huddle sub-forum, but not in these debates.

Of course theyre acceptable. If every discussion is going to end with Oh yeah, then prove God exists then this entire website shouldnt exist. We have to make allowances that a deity might possibly exist if were going to debate the theology of that deity.

Verifiable evidence for past events (that actually occurred) need not require "time travel". For instance, abundant verifiable evidence from multiple disconnected sources exists that atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki seventy years ago without time travel.

If one wishes to verify that Jesus was God then time travel is essential. A two thousand year old claim that a man is also a deity isnt comparable to the situations you cited.

Why waste a good time-travel trip to verify something that was never claimed by either the Bible writers, or in the records of what Jesus said?

Jesus NEVER claimed he was God.

Now man, that is religious men did eventually (about 320AD) deify Jesus the man into a god, which is a deity (that's what Deity means, a deified man to godhood, .. or sainthood) more specifically they made him to be their sun-god that the Catholics worship even today through their man-made Trinity-Doctrine.

Who is this "Deity that rules from the Satanic supernatural realm"?
(Remember Gods throne is in Heaven, from where He rules and communicates with us through revelation through His Prophets, .. not divines to diviners/witches/warlocks, which according to the Bible is an abomination to God. Just ask King Saul (David's father-in-law)

Here it is finally revealed who this Christian Trinity "sun-god" really is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcpVrtv2t-M

Who now the whole world worships:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP_5NLiAn4M

- straight answer.

[arian]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

Pardon me, I thought perhaps I would have a little fun with this. I have no agenda as far as what you believe and no way to prove most of these, myself, of course. But when push comes to shove, most of us don't have first hand knowledge of most things we prefer to believe. Take global warming, for example. Why do I choose to believe the scientists that say it is a problem? Perhaps because their position seemed most convincing.

Yes their position is definitely very convincing, .. and they make sure it is by their weather modification abilities like; HAARP, Chem-trailing, intentional melting down power plants releasing so much radiation into our waters, air and soil that is mutating all biological life, plants and animals either into another species (which is actually the plan/hope) or into extinction (Satan's hope).

But I personally have zero first hand knowledge of these things and my opinion is not worth much, I can quote someone else, perhaps. That goes for so many things we believe because none of us are authorities in everything we hold opinions on. We have accepted these things as true because of the convincing appeal offered by someone who has the credentials to make the claim.

You don't have first-hand knowledge?? Where have you been all your life? Healthy people are forced to have a colonoscopy and die 6 months later of cancer caused by the supposed chemo-therapy injections. Children who were selected for extermination are ORDERED chemo till the day before they die, tell me you don't know about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWy2najUOb8

Look up into the sky, you see them chem trails? Do you care to know the difference between con-trails and chem-trails? Here, in case you haven't noticed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZaD-H_j3pU

I have studied economics and finance and have a fancy piece of paper to prove it, but even there I have to accept the veracity of the research promoted by others in my field and sometimes there are differing opinions. Actually, quite a bit.

I have only a couple of comments below:

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

What does that mean you who "studied economics and finance and have a fancy piece of paper to prove it" ?
It means Jesus was human, born of human, not the magical Mary the mother of all gods, but of a human virgin, a girl named Mary.

Humans possess a soul? None

Well yes, Evolutionist humans are animals, so they don't have a soul, no free will nor a mind of their own. They are apes that have a brain with some liquid surrounding it which creates delusions on their brains no different than LSD. Only this liquid is from millions and billions of Carl Sagan years of evolution, which even with LSD inside it remains undiluted and in control, or soon after the LSD wears off the chemicals for some reason go back to reasoning and creating as before.

Hmm, .. what if they drain that mind/liquid, will the individual loose their mind??

Actually, we do not possess a soul, we are a soul. I copied this from Strong's Concordance on Biblehub: 5590 psyx (from psyx, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") " soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

5590 (psyx") corresponds exactly to the OT 5315 /phg ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person, making them an ensouled being.

That's right, the body is of dust. It is Gods Spirit that He breathed into Adam that made him a "living being", or a "living soul". The body simply responds to the mind/spirit, but Gods Breath inside the body that makes us individual souls/beings.

Pshyche was the goddess of the soul. And, btw, it corresponds roughly with ego.

So, you can say you are not a living soul. That's fine by me.

LOL, .. I could say; "I'm an animal, an ape and my distant cousins rats" would be fine by you, .. right?

An afterlife exists? None

Everyone keeps their loved ones "after life" living, heck even dogs do. So why is that, if the body is all there is? How can we keep that person alive, why would that person whose body is dead do the same? The spirit of man lives on, until we get a New body that will never die.

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Many, many miracles happened since the Biblical ones, I am a living, walking miracle myself.

How about this, since you are an Evolutionist:

Evidence of monkeys (or ANY species speciating) speciating into humans? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

What? there is all kinds of evidence of all that, but you would have to actually have a "mind", not brain-fluid to see/understand this.

I do have my own strange belief in stopping the world, so to speak. It isn't just Christian. But one way I have heard it put is that it is a stage of meditation. Someday perhaps science will pinpoint what that phenomenon is, but in the meantime it satisfies me that science attributes a good number of positive effects on the human body from meditation.

Yes, New Age sci-fi-physics like 666CERN, the Vatican's LUCIFER telescope, and the first 6LHC Temple were all built on the "meditation" and ancient mythological ideologies that evolved and accumulated in the brain-liquid, it is what Sci-Fientology is built on.

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Instead, .. Mother Nature does, right?
Again, I am a living proof that God intercedes in human affairs, He just doesn't "interfere" much as possible as Lucifer does.

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None

As evidence by??

.. oh yea, by Sigmund Freud, never mind.

Look who inspired Jane Roberts? Are you going to deny she was inspired by forces other than her own brain-liquid? How about Marshal Applewhite and his crew?

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 543 by arian]

Thank you Arian, as always, for giving readers a Religionist viewpoint to compare to Non-Religionist viewpoints.

Pardon me, I thought perhaps I would have a little fun with this. I have no agenda as far as what you believe and no way to prove most of these, myself, of course. But when push comes to shove, most of us don't have first hand knowledge of most things we prefer to believe. Take global warming, for example. Why do I choose to believe the scientists that say it is a problem? Perhaps because their position seemed most convincing.

Yes their position is definitely very convincing, .. and they make sure it is by their weather modification abilities like; HAARP, Chem-trailing, intentional melting down power plants releasing so much radiation into our waters, air and soil that is mutating all biological life, plants and animals either into another species (which is actually the plan/hope) or into extinction (Satan's hope).
Notice that the OP does not ask about any of those topics. It asks if there is verifiable evidence to support Bible tales. Can we stay on that topic? OR, is it necessary to inject all sorts of notions? Such as

Talking about HAARP, Chem-trailing, intentional melting down power plants releasing so much radiation into our waters, air and soil that is mutating all biological life, plants and animals either into another species (which is actually the plan/hope) or into extinction (Satan's hope).

Interesting speculation " particularly the Satan part. Not related to the OP.

But I personally have zero first hand knowledge of these things and my opinion is not worth much, I can quote someone else, perhaps. That goes for so many things we believe because none of us are authorities in everything we hold opinions on. We have accepted these things as true because of the convincing appeal offered by someone who has the credentials to make the claim.

You don't have first-hand knowledge?? Where have you been all your life?

Not everyone gets their knowledge from Youtube (or from television, movies, scifi, video games, sermons, or ancient tales).

Not everyone is convinced that Youtube represents first-hand knowledge.

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

It means Jesus was human,

Is this to claim that Jesus was not supernatural in any way? If so I agree " and accept that a Jesus-like character (not the same name or exact details necessarily) was a wandering preacher who got himself killed for bucking Roman and Jewish officials.

born of human, not the magical Mary the mother of all gods, but of a human virgin, a girl named Mary.

How do you know the girl was a virgin (never had intercourse)? Did she say so? Where?

WHO said she was a virgin? Did men who knew (or did not know) her SAY she was a virgin? How did they know? Even with modern medical knowledge and a detailed pelvic examination it CANNOT be determined if a woman has had intercourse.

But those ancient guys KNEW. Right?

Humans possess a soul? None

Well yes, Evolutionist humans are animals, so they don't have a soul, no free will nor a mind of their own. They are apes that have a brain

That's progress. But then it degenerates into:

with some liquid surrounding it which creates delusions on their brains no different than LSD. Only this liquid is from millions and billions of Carl Sagan years of evolution, which even with LSD inside it remains undiluted and in control, or soon after the LSD wears off the chemicals for some reason go back to reasoning and creating as before.

Hmm, .. what if they drain that mind/liquid, will the individual loose their mind??

Speaking of losing one's mind, LSD and liquid on the brain . . . . decorum and Forum Rules discourage further comment.

Actually, we do not possess a soul, we are a soul. I copied this from Strong's Concordance on Biblehub:

If Biblehub and Arian say so it MUST be true.

That's right, the body is of dust. It is Gods Spirit that He breathed into Adam that made him a "living being", or a "living soul". The body simply responds to the mind/spirit, but Gods Breath inside the body that makes us individual souls/beings.

So say unverified tales told by ancient storytellers. They MUST be right . . .

An afterlife exists? None

Everyone keeps their loved ones "after life" living, heck even dogs do. So why is that, if the body is all there is?

Memories of deceased people do not indicate that the deceased was anything more than a human. Memories fade over generations and centuries.

How can we keep that person alive,

We CANNOT keep a dead person alive (though we can keep an almost-dead person alive beyond what would occur without medical intervention).

why would that person whose body is dead do the same? The spirit of man lives on, until we get a New body that will never die.

Interesting speculation (or is it wishful thinking?). Verification?

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Many, many miracles happened since the Biblical ones,

There are many CLAIMS of miracles and no evidence that they are anything other than claims.

Kindly present readers with a list of miracles that can be verified as having occurred AND were of supernatural origin.

I am a living, walking miracle myself.

No comment

Evidence of monkeys (or ANY species speciating) speciating into humans? None

Evidence from anthropology is difficult to understand, particularly for those predisposed to dismiss anything that contradicts their pet theories of why things are as they are " and those who lack the ability and motivation to study difficult subjects.

It is far easier to make up stories or accept those told by ancient writers " whose knowledge was evidently about the level characteristic of a couple or few thousand years ago.

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

What? there is all kinds of evidence of all that, but you would have to actually have a "mind", not brain-fluid to see/understand this.

Let's assume that not all readers are as handicapped mentally as this implies. Present them with evidence that:

The Earth stopped rotating sun stood still for hours
There was an earthquake and darkening of the sky at the time of the storied Crucifixion
That a star stopped over a given location
There was a worldwide flood to the tops of mountains that killed all animal life (including humans) except those aboard an ark

I do have my own strange belief in stopping the world, so to speak.

I do not doubt that you have the claimed strange belief.

It isn't just Christian. But one way I have heard it put is that it is a stage of meditation.

Is this a claim that meditation stops the Earth from rotating?

Someday perhaps science will pinpoint what that phenomenon is, but in the meantime it satisfies me that science attributes a good number of positive effects on the human body from meditation.

Sure enough. Accept whatever parts of science seems to support your position and reject any that does not. That is known as confirmation bias and/or willful ignorance and/or cherry-picking.

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Instead, .. Mother Nature does, right?

Nope. Nature doesn't care one way or another.

Again, I am a living proof that God intercedes in human affairs,

How so?

He just doesn't "interfere" much as possible as Lucifer does.

Kindly cite verifiable evidence that either God or Lucifer actually interfere (intercede) in human affairs. Note the term verifiable " which means that the evidence presented can be checked for truth and accuracy.

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None

As evidence by??

If I made the claim I would have solid, verifiable evidence " or, more accurately, I would not be so foolish as to make the claim UNLESS I had reached that conclusion based upon sound, verifiable evidence " which I would be glad to cite if asked.

Look who inspired Jane Roberts? Are you going to deny she was inspired by forces other than her own brain-liquid? How about Marshal Applewhite and his crew?

Let's add Martin Luther, Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Buddha, Paul/Saul, gospel writers, etc.

I would credit all of those people with expressing what they THOUGHT about supernatural entities and events. What they all have in common is that their stories cannot be shown to be anything OTHER than products of their own mind.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to marco]

Hello Marco,

This answer is for your post #496

You said,

For all you know, Erexsaur, he (the wrong image of God) may well exist. There is plenty of evidence of him in the books you uphold. Your charity has formed from the clay of imagination a nicer, friendlier god, but one still as silent as the grave.

What I share is based on real life experience with God that's real and that He is good.

It sounds ludicrously forgetful that a large part of the world suffers hunger and thirst, with no provision from that beneficent God of yours. Replace "us" with capitalised ME and you may have imaginative truth.

Should we blame God for the evil of this world instead of viewing Him according to His effort to rescue us from the evil we brought upon ourselves? There are many feeding the hungry that God had sent. Out of your concern, are you willing to have Him send you?

Where did all the good things we enjoy originate? Can you number them? Do we appreciate them?

You have built your faith - from what you have written -on a fairy tale. The god in it may as well be the giant at the top of Jack's beanstalk, such is his credibility.

I would be wrong to speak according to what I did not first partake of myself and wrong to partake and not speak of it.

Do you have a problem with my sharing knowledge of good I experienced with hope that you enjoy the same?

Take care, guys
Earl

[Willum]

[Replying to post 541 by theophile]

We can't (IMO) look for verifiable evidence of biblical teachings in the form that we would typically require to give us confidence in their historic reality. It's not like we're going to find a nail that can be carbon-dated and analyzed to the right time and place, and with DNA on it that doesn't fit the human genome but is something more divine... We're not going to find it and hopefully don't need to either...

You'll notice, this is a device inherent in the Religion.

I start out by explaining, as background as it were, that something is happening, or in this case, can't happen -then I have set the stage. If I accept your premise that we can't look for verifiable evidence, then when, eventually your "proof" relies on this, you have made your proof.

But if I ask, "What is your basis for having me believe We can't look for verifiable evidence of biblical teachings in the form that we would typically require to give us confidence in their historic reality.?

Now we can start talking.

So what is your basis for believing that we can't look for verifiable evidence? and why should I accept it?

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to post 497 by Blastcat]

Hello Blastcat,

This is an answer to your post #497 and is the second of three posts..

My purpose in my last post was not to discourage or discontinue debates, but that we not be so wrapped up in an issue that solutions may slip past us. I enjoy debating with you guys. I learned very much from you and enjoy knowing you as friends and have no desire to part company by quitting the debate.

You said,

I think hoping for settlements in here is unrealistic.

We present our best arguments, and let the readers decide. That's what Z taught me right from the start. We can call the readers our "invisible audience".

The gospel itself is already settled and settlement between individuals is between those that accept it. Those that don't accept the gospel only leave themselves out. Or do we prefer living our lives through with no solution?

As for presenting and choosing the best argument, is there a guarantee that even it may be sufficient? What if there's conflict over what's best? What if no one is even aware of what's best? Children have their parents to ask for help with difficult issues. During a continental convention when tempers became heated, Ben Franklin suggested prayer that saved the day.

As fallible beings, we run into times when we need the assistance of the Infallible.

You continued,

Another reason to continue debate is that it takes a LONG time for some people to get out from under their religious indoctrination. Most, if not all atheists in these forums were theists before. We know what it's like to "Think inside the box".

I know of believers that are former atheists that are among the best defenders of the gospel. One wrote a book called, Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

It also took time for me to escape erroneous, counter-productive religious indoctrination. But that which is genuine set me free from the bondage of such. Jesus warned against the leaven of the Pharisees. Should anyone turn away from ALL Christian doctrine to open himself up to the bondage he seeks to escape in another gift wrapped package? Only a PERSON has the liberty we seek.

1. We have no evidence that a lack of preachers will destroy a society.
2. We have no evidence that preaching settles anything.

But societies ware destroyed even despite preaching. Remember the flood? Nineveh in the book of Jonah would be an exception because they heeded Jonah. But Nineveh later went back to sin and was destroyed. Even Israel herself failed for continuing in practices that were preached against. It is not written, Save yourselves from this untoward generation (Acts 2:40)?

Don't worry if you can't find evidence. It will eventually find you. Should a person cease sounding an alarm for fear that no one will heed?


As an answer to my warning that a third party may use controversy as a tactic to destabilize a society, you said,

I don't share your fears.[quote]

But wouldn't an enemy be happy for none of us to fear any danger he would pose? I'm sure that you agree that there is always someone somewhere in hiding waiting for an opportunity to pounce on our liberty when our eyes are shut! Isn't constant vigilance always needed?

In response to my statement, "Beyond the countless number of systems of beliefs, is there not at least one that's genuine above all?" You said,

Not necessarily so.
All systems of belief might be false.

But wouldn't that also include your system of non-belief? Isn't non-belief the negative side of belief? Don't we all live by some form of belief system even if not considered religious? Atheism is a belief system that supports the belief there's no god.

Are you trying to say that there's no truth available anywhere to be believed? Would you want it that way? Would anyone? I wouldn't.

I don't desire to be WRONG, that's for sure. But we have the unfortunate situation that a LOT of people proclaim to have found what is truly genuine, and not all of them agree with what that happens to be. And we KNOW that at least SOME of them are WRONG.

I don't LIKE to be wrong. So, I ask for evidence before I believe any of them.

I am with you in your determination to prevent error by proving all things and the Bible backs you up (Thessalonians 5:21). That's wisdom. Thank you.

I find the most common cause of sectarian division is that one group would esteem a certain scripture up to a point of condemning others that don't do the same in a supposed effort to avoid heresy. Another group may esteem another scripture likewise and yet another group another scripture. But failure in other scripture is also failure in that which is so highly esteemed. They fail to realize that they condemn themselves by condemning the other guy and thus plunge themselves into their own kind of heresy. Is there not a way to solve conflict without falling out?

Only Jesus fulfilled all scripture.

The god depicted in the Bible can be perfectly unique and completely fictional.

God of the Bible may only be seen in two ways: As Lord to whom we totally submit or as a 100% quack worthy only to be shunned.

There's a wide difference between knowing a person by talking about or reading about him and by personal interaction. Although we never met in person, at least we communicate. But there's a variable called acceptance. Have you gone through anything that brought you to your knees beyond your resources that made you aware of inner yearning for someone higher than you and I that cares?

Yes, that IS a part of what I walked away from. I also walked away from religious indoctrination and started to think about things for myself, instead of being told what to think. There are plenty of other books than just the Bible.

Some of those are pretty darn good, too.

But the Bible is unique among books. Although fools to waste our brains not to think for ourselves, aren't we yet under authority to make us think twice before driving at 100 mph? Do we have all knowledge as food for thought?

Send an electronics technician to a job to repair a piece of equipment and anger him by taking away the tech manual that contains the schematic diagram. But what good is the diagram that shows every single connection between internal components unless the technician understands the operation of the circuit? Despite the availability of many other good books on electronics, he needs that particular manual for that piece of equipment.

The Bible is the tech manual of life that contains the schematic diagram of the nature of fallen man under under a merciful God in addition to the creation picture as a whole.


You said,

And yet, your HOPE that your beliefs are true is not evidence for the truth of your beliefs.

I thought that the testimony of a witness is the most obvious of evidence.

You said further down,

Then you should not judge the god ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

But you DO judge him GOOD.. or you just accept that he is good because it says so, or some preacher told you that.

You make a case for moral NEUTRALITY, then take a side.
This is inconsistent reasoning.

But don't we measure a person by the reality of the good or evil he does especially to us as individuals? I thought that a tree is known by its fruit. Should a poison ivy plant be allowed to stand as favorable for the sake of neutrality-based equality with a grapevine?

I judge God by His goodness to me that I experienced, not by what another said.


Take care,
Earl

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to post 546 by Willum]

Hi guys,

This my third of three posts.

As desired on this thread, here's more empirical evidence for the reality of God. What I'm about to say is based purely on scientific findings so far.

Scientists have advanced further than ever before in the study of stars with hope for finding a life supporting planetary system similar to ours. With the help of the Kepler Space telescope, more than 3443 planets in 2571 planetary systems have been found so far. Only a drop in the Pacific Ocean, what may we expect in the sample size we have so far?

As the search continues, let's look at our home planet to see all that makes it suitable for our support. The primary requirement of the earth being in the Goldilocks zone where temperature allows water to exist in all three states is far insufficient alone.

The planets Jupiter and Saturn greatly diminishes the risk of asteroid and comet intrusions. The earth orbit is nearly circular and its tilt is correct for the seasons not to be too extreme. Colder climates due to major volcanic eruptions help us to appreciate the precision of the seasonal balance. Think about the year-long winters caused by the Krakatoa and Tambora volcanic eruptions.

Our moon is at the right size, mass, and distance for tides not to be too high to cause flooding or too low to keep the oceans from stagnating. As if an extra favor for us, the sun and the moon are at the exact sizes and distances in relation to the earth for total eclipses that enable the valuable scientific studies that require it. Coincidences?

We would have no rain without dust particles in the atmosphere to seed it. The earth atmosphere contains carbon dioxide for plants to breathe and grow, oxygen for animals, and nitrogen to dilute the oxygen to keep fires controllable.

The sun is found unique even among other stars with similar masses and color. Some vary too widely in brightness and others have flare and storm activity too intense to support life. None so far were found as stable as the sun.

Using the law of probability, what would be the chance for finding another stellar system somewhere with a planet that meets all of earth's conditions simultaneously? Even though exact figures given by a scientist escape my memory, the chance he gave is extremely small and next to impossibility. I have given only a hand full of examples.

What conclusion should deductive reasoning bring us about our planet's origin based on the things I mentioned above? Should we say that we are just lucky or should common sense support the Biblical claim that a Sovereign Being of higher intelligence tailored our planet?

But there's a far better way to prove the reality of God than by any argument. You are familiar with the phrase, People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care. The person that shows genuine care to one that's in need is the person that most effectively demonstrates the reality, character, and grace of God.


Take care,
Earl

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 548 by Erexsaur]


All that your post says so far is that the Earth supports life as we know it.

Let's explore the possibilities:

Astronomers estimate that the Milky Way contains up to 400 billion stars of various sizes and brightness.

There are spiral galaxies out there with more than a trillion stars, and giant elliptical galaxies with 100 trillion stars. And there are tiny dwarf galaxies with a fraction of our number of stars.

According to astronomers, there are probably more than 170 billion galaxies in the observable Universe, stretching out into a region of space 13.8 billion light-years away from us in all directions.

And so, if you multiply the number of stars in our galaxy by the number of galaxies in the Universe, you get approximately 1024 stars. Thats a 1 followed by twenty-four zeros.
http://www.universetoday.com/102630/how ... -universe/

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Our sun, an average star (nothing special) has eight or possibly more planets " one of which supports life as we know it (as far as we know now the others do not). If our planet is the only life-sustaining planet in the Milky Way galaxy among 400 Billion stars (unlikely?) " and if other galaxies each have only one such planet (unlikely?) that would mean 170 BILLION life-capable planets in the known universe. AND, 13 billion years or so to develop life.

Would it not be rather presumptuous to maintain that Earth is the ONLY planet that supports life among the BILLIONS of chances?

The chance of being lucky and winning a Powerball lottery are said to be about 1 in 175,000,000 http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/09/pf/powe ... index.html yet someone wins . . .

Would some of the folks who have direct communication with God kindly ask for information regarding this? Is God two-timing us with other life forms elsewhere " while making us think we are his only bride?