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logical thinking
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:33 pm  Why do you believe in God? Reply with quote

Why do you believe in God?

What specific argument or evidence is it, that persuades you?

Can you please outline the argument or piece of evidence that you believe is the STRONGEST reason to believe in God?

For example, is it the beauty and majesty of trees? Is it the Kalam Cosmological argument? Pascal's wager? Is it that you witnessed what you believe is a miracle? Is it the fact that you think the Bible contains prophecies? Is it because it feels good to believe in something greater than yourself?

Why do you believe in God?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 31: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:05 am
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Zzyzx wrote:
Those are excellent STORIES. Can they be verified as being true and accurate?
How does one verify as being true and accurate, “I was blind. Now I’m not?”

How does one verify today an event that was written down in the 18th Century?

None of this can be done; therefore, they’re hoaxes – right? [eyeroll]

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 32: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:18 am
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JLB32168 wrote:

I would win every argument I made on this board if I excluded all evidence contra my argument.

And I would win every argument you can think of in this board or any other board if all I needed was personal testimony

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 33: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:38 am
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1213 wrote:

logical thinking wrote:

Why do you believe in God?


For me Bible is the greatest reason to believe. And that is because it has great knowledge and wisdom that I think people would not have without God.

Can you give me an example f knowledge in the Bible that could have only come from God?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 34: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:42 am
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Divine Insight wrote:

I actually have quite a bit to say on this philosophical question. However, since you posted this in Christianity and Apologetics my reply may not fit into your expectations. Especially concerning the very concept of "God".


logical thinking wrote:

Why do you believe in God?


To begin with, my idea of God is more along the lines of various Eastern Mystical concepts of "God". And so to have a meaningful conversation on that topic we would most likely need to discuss that very concept first. I don't care to do that in this thread at all considering this is posted in Christianity and Apologetics.

logical thinking wrote:

What specific argument or evidence is it, that persuades you?


The obvious fact that I am aware that I am having an experience.

logical thinking wrote:

Can you please outline the argument or piece of evidence that you believe is the STRONGEST reason to believe in God?


Again the term "God" may be confusing here. Just for the sake of extreme simplicity all me to define "God" as the ultimate consciousness of all that exists. And please accept that this is an extremely poor definition being offered only as an intuitive framework to provide some understanding of what I'm trying to get at.

My argument goes as follows:

Our current materialistic and scientific description of the world does not even postulate or assume that energy/matter has a fundamental property of "consciousness" <--- again a very poor word to convey what I actually mean. It might be better to say that our scientific worldview does not postulate that energy/matter even has an innate potential to be "aware" of anything.

Yet we are aware. As far as I can see, we would then need to explain awareness in terms of four fundamental forces, Gravity, Electromagnetism, and the Strong and Weak nuclear forces. So which of these can explain "awareness"?

Well, of those four Electromagnetism is certainly the most likely to serve in that role, but even Electromagnetism could not create "awareness" unless this force (or quantum field) already innately had an ability to be aware.

In short, I just can't see where a purely materialistic worldview can explain awareness (or just exactly what it is that had become aware) unless it at least begins by postulating that the fundamental material of reality innately has this ability.

And if it does, then it is this that I call "God". And as the Eastern Mystics say, "Tat T'vam Asi", meaning, "You are That".

And so in this sense I see rational and logical reasons to "believe" in the existence of a "God".

Obviously not an external egotistical jealous God that exists separate from us, but rather a God who has become manifest in this reality as us.

~~~~~

So that's my answer. Obviously no help for Christianity and Apologetics since their picture of God would not qualify here anyway.

But yeah, the fact that I am aware that I am having an experience does it for me. I don't how our current materialistic picture of reality could account for that. At the very least, the stuff we are made of is "God" and obviously we are it, at least our vantage point (our individual conscious experience) is a facet of God. And this is the philosophy of various Eastern Mystical religions including some versions of Buddhism.

Yeah, I'm sorry, your definition of god does nothing for me. Mumbo jumbo about electromagnetism and awareness doesn't really do it for me. Thanks anyway.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 35: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:51 am
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JehovahsWitness wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by logical thinking]

For me it is just a logical inevitability, there has to be a "first cause" the "uncaused cause".



1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The Universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the Universe had a cause.

How do you know the universe had a beginning?

The Scientific concensus is that it did

SINGULARITY: The theory that an infintesimal point of singularity always existed for all eterntiy in a totally stable condition suddenly exploded into change defies the law of inertia (things that are at rest stay at rest unless unless acted upon by a net unbalanced force).

If everything has to have a creator who made God?

Everything does not have to have a "creator", everything that had a BEGINNING had to have CAUSE. By definition "first cause" has no beginning and therefore needs no "creator" (cause)

Is it possible for something to exist without having begun to exist?

If not, then it's impossible for God to exist without having begun to exist, and therefore God also needs a cause.

If it is possible for something to exist without having begun to exist, then maybe the universe exists without having begun to exist and therefore doesn't need a cause. Have you proven that this is not the case for the universe?

What do you mean that there is a scientific consensus that the universe began to exist? The Big Bang is simply a phenomenon whereby the universe rapidly went from very small to very big. What makes you think that it BEGUN to exist at the big bang?

Did a stick of dynamite "begin to exist" when it exploded? That's all the Big Bang was. a big.... bang. an explosion. It's really weird that you would say that something doesn't exist before exploding. By definition it must exist in order to explode.

And please don't bore us with absurdities about the law of inertia. Conditions are different at a singularity, where time doesn't exist. Something canno t"stay" at rest at a singularity, because "Staying" implies passage of time, which is inapplicable to an infinitely large gravitational field with enormous time warp.

and besides, how do you go from "SOMETHING" must have caused the big bang to "this "SOMETHING" causes donkeys to talk from time to time?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 36: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:57 am
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Elijah John wrote:

logical thinking wrote:

Elijah John wrote:

Creation.
The term "creation" is a loaded one, since a creation implies a creator.

Probably what you mean is not "creation". What you mean is "existence". That seems like a more neutral word, which doesn't presuppose your conclusion before even making your argument.

So, is your argument that stuff which exists... exists, therefore God did it?

I encountered that same argument from a 4 year old once, who asked me "If Santa doesn't exist, then how do you explain the presents under the christmas tree?"


Existence too, implies a Source, a Creator. Either blind chance, or a Being far more powerful and intelligent than we are.

But the question was "why do we believe?", not "prove there is a God". Creation, nature, existence call it what you will, is the main reason I believe.

More so than "The Bible tells me so". So with that Deistic answer, I have fewer claims to defend.

But yeah, can't prove God, not trying to. Just answerin' the question.

The term existence doesn't imply a creator at all. At least no more than the use of the word creator implies that the creator exists, which by your very logic in turn implies that this creator had a source. So, why aren't you worshipping super-god, the creator of God?

Existence of our universe is evidence of existence of our universe. Period.

I appreciate your honesty in admitting you cannot prove God. But even if you can't prove it, you could at least provide some kind of cogent argument or evidence, no?

So far, all I got from you is a reiteration of "Existence exists, therefore God".

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 37: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:02 pm
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JehovahsWitness wrote:

[Replying to post 15 by Justin108]

Fine well then I believe in FC and I'll leave the moderators and the OP to decide if my answer is relevant or irrelavant in this thread. It can be removed by a moderator if they think it is totally unrelated or inappropriate here.


JW

JW,
Let's pretend your theory isn't completely destroyed by modern Einsteinian physics, and that it makes sense.

Let's pretend it's ok to think in terms of linear time, when at a singularity time is warped, not linear.

Let's just pretend that any of this makes any sense and therefore conclude that the wacky theory that SOMETHING caused the big bang, is legit.

Let's call this cause a random quantum fluctuation.

Now let's go back to the OP, and tell me why do you believe in God? Forget about the wacky theories about the quantum fluctuation causing the big bang.

Why do you believe that some guy caused a 14 year old jewish girl to get magically pregnant?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 38: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:13 pm
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marco wrote:

logical thinking wrote:



I encountered that same argument from a 4 year old once, who asked me "If Santa doesn't exist, then how do you explain the presents under the christmas tree?"


You've not quite understood your four-year-old jurist, then. He correctly sees presents whose provenance he has been assured are from Santa and hence he deduces that a giver exists. He is correct. A giver does exist. The nomenclature is irrelevant.

Yes, there must be some kind of explanation for the existence of the christmas presents, but there are no valid grounds to assume that the explanation involves the supernatural, and that it involves flying reindeer and an invisible toy factory in the north pole.

Similarly, I'm sure there must be some kind of explanation for why the universe exists, but there are no valid grounds to assume that this explanation must involve the supernatural, such as talking snakes, flying zombies or virgin births.

Out of curiosity, do you believe that magicians actually saw their assistants in half?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 39: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:28 pm
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JLB32168 wrote:

logical thinking wrote:
Why do you believe in God?
There are several reasons I believe in God. While subscribing to the theory of Evolution, I think that the idea that the universe simply happened w/o any form of intelligent direction, is an absurd idea.
You're absolutely right! The idea that God simply happened or always existed, without any form of intelligent direction, is an absurd idea. Obviously something must have created God. All Hail Super God, the Creator of God!

Wait, who created Super God?

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Evolution selects for traits that help the species. Religions, specifically Christianity, teach us to care of the sick. No other species does that.
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH the ignorance! It hurts so much!

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/04/6-amazing-ways-animals-show-compa...
http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/9988/compassion-in-the-animal-kingdom/

Sorry, buddy, compassion for the weak is prevalent all throughout the animal kingdom. It just is. End of story.

Quote:
No other species would allow, for example, the mentally handicapped to survive as long as they do since there exists the potential that they will reproduce and perpetuate something like Downs Syndrome. In short, religion isn’t beneficial from an atheistic evolutionary standpoint.
Yes, religion is totally useless, I agree. But compassion and empathy in social animals such as humans, is VERY beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint. It signals an ability to operate as a team, as a cohesive unit, which is almost always stronger than random groups of selfish individuals.

Quote:
logical thinking wrote:
What specific argument or evidence is it, that persuades you?
I don’t think that belief in God can be limited to one specific argument or piece of evidence. Instead, it requires a synthesis of various and sundry pieces of evidence. Miracles that happen “in the name” of a specific deity are such an example.
Miracles that HAPPEN may or may not be an interesting piece of evidence.

But miracles that didn't actually happen, and instead are just SAID to have happened by ignorant superstitious people, fall squarely under the category of make-believe. I have no idea why fairy tales should be evidence of anything real.

Can you point to a single miracle that actually happened?

Quote:
The atheist/skeptic would offer that other religions have miracles happen in them
No buddy. there are no miracles. It's all make believe. I mean, if you have any solid evidence that a miracle ever happened, in ANY religion, please present it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 40: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:29 pm
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JLB32168 wrote:

Justin108 wrote:
A bit of a double standard, wouldn't you say? "Miracles in the name of my god proves my god is real. Miracles in the name of your god also proves my god is real and that you are simply trying to lead people astray"
That’s a separate question. The point was that miracles occur that cannot be scientifically/naturally explained and for the theist, this is indicative of the supernatural.

Please document such an instance of a miracle

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