-How can an intelligent, honest, compassionate person when he reads objectively the bible can say and believe that it is somehow in sync with reality, science, genuine moral values, and logic is beyond me?
-How can someone believe that an omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good God exists
as long as the problem of evil, pain is not resolved yet?(not even great philosophers like Descartes, Leibniz, and Berkeley have given a satisfactory response)
-How can someone believe the Genesis story of creation, that some fictitious omnipotent being made light and after the stars, therefore the sun and ignore the science that tells us that light cannot exist without the existence of stars; or that the life existed first on the land as plants and later the seas teemed with living creatures when geological science can prove that the sea teemed with animals and vegetable life long before vegetation and life appeared on land?
(Genesis 1:11-13)(Genesis 1:20-23)
-How can someone in 2016 believe that some fictitious omnipotent being created the first humans, Adam and Eve just 6000 years ago and ignore all the fossils of homo sapiens found that are older then tens of thousands of years old, all the ancients sites that are older then 9000 years old, all the caves painting that are tens of thousands of years old?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmeyr_Skull
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvet_Cave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology
http://www.hebroots.com/lul7_8.html
-How can someone believe that in ~4000 BC there was a global flood and all the saved animals migrated from Middle East after the flood to all places of the Earth and ignore all the evidence from all the scientific fields that tells us the opposite, that there was no global flood; when we have trees older then 5000 years old, when we have fossils of kangaroos only in Australia or fossils of a particular species of bisons called Bison latifrons only in North America, when you have The Old Red Sandstone, a collection of fossilized desert dunes, which was formed in Devonian times(~400 millions years ago), when The Grand Canyon contains fossil desert dunes and other sediments that to all appearances were deposited on dry land?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Red_Sandstone
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_latifrons
https://ncse.com/cej/1/1/fatal-flaws-flood-geology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tjikko
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)
-How can anyone believe the story of creation that some fictitious omnipotent being created from dirt the first humans Adam and Eve and say that the theory of evolution is not a scientific fact when we have all the transitional fossils of animals(Tiktaalik, Ichthyostega, Pederpes, Ichthyornis, Archaeopteryx, Lycaenops , Pakicetus, Indohyus, Eocaecilia, Pezosiren portelli, Najash, etc) and the transitional fossils of humans(Ardipithecus ramidus, Australopithecus africanus , Homo habilis , Homo erectus, Australopithecus afarensis ) that show otherwise, all the DNA evidence that shows we are related to all animals to some degree, and animals are related to each other. The fruit fly (Drosophila) shares about 36% of its DNA with humans. About 60% of chicken genes correspond to a similar human gene. Cows (Bos Taurus) are 80% genetically similar to humans. Cats have 90% of homologous genes with humans, 82% with dogs, 80% with cows, 79% with chimpanzees, 69% with rats and 67% with mice. Chimpanzees are 96% to 98% similar to humans. Neanderthals are 99.5% similar to humans. Genome-wide variation from one human being to another can be up to 0.5% (99.5% similarity)?
http://www.transitionalfossils.com
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_h ... on_fossils
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2448423/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK6360/
http://genetics.thetech.org/online-exhi ... nes-common
-How can anyone believe that the resurrection of Jesus is historical proof and a fact when the mainstream scholarly view is that the Gospels are anonymous works, written in the third person, in a different language than that of Jesus, in distant lands, after a substantial gap of time(decades), by unknown persons, compiling, redacting, and inventing various traditions, in order to provide a narrative of Christianity’s central figure–Jesus Christ–to confirm the faith of their communities.
http://www.humanreligions.info/gospels.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historica ... he_Gospels
-Even the concept of a perfectly good, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, all loving being that created our universe and life falls short when you analyzed it against the bible.
-Even though God is all loving, therefore loves all humans equally he chose a specific group of humans, the Israelites that he showed favor over all the other humans. Why?
-Even though God is omniscient, omnipotent therefore with perfect knowledge, perfect efficiency, infinite wisdom he chose to spread his message through one of the most small, undeveloped civilization and culture of the time: the Israelites. Why? Wouldn’t have been more efficient to choose the Chinese, being a more powerful, big and developed civilization at the time?
-Even though God’s middle-knowledge and foreknowledge told him that the future population of the earth would be mostly of Chinese and Indians he didn’t chose any of them to convey his message. Why?
-Even though God is omniscient, omnipotent therefore with perfect knowledge and perfect efficiency and infinite wisdom he didn’t chose to reveal himself personally to every person that lived, lives and ever will live; which would have made 100% sure that all people know that he exists and receive the message, but chose to do this through a book that would later be translated to all the world languages that he created in the first place when he confused the people that were building the tower of Babylon, leading eventually to errors, changes in the text and therefore spreading the wrong message. Why?
-Even though God’s middle-knowledge and foreknowledge told him that this would lead to the different interpretations by the faulty humans, to the many different denominations and quarrel among them about who knows the truth, the true path to achieve salvation, and to billions not believing or not getting reached by those who spread the gospel; he chose to do this anyway. Why?
-Even though God is all loving, therefore loves all humans equally he punished people of Sodom and Gomorrah for being sinners while letting the rest of the population of the Earth at that time of the hook. Why? Surely there were many gays, rapists and murderers outside of Sodom and Gomorrah.(Genesis 18:16-33), (Genesis 19:24-25)
-Even though God’s middle-knowledge and foreknowledge told him that people were and will be sinful all throughout history, all across the globe he chose to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of sin. Why? Now for example there are more rapists, murderers, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals then ever before.
-Even though God is all loving therefore loves both humans equally; is omniscient, omnipotent therefore with perfect knowledge, perfect efficiency, infinite wisdom and even though he wanted the Pharaoh to let the Israelites go from Egypt, he violated, restricted Pharaoh’s free moral will when he hardened his heart, strengthened his resolve and he didn’t let the Israelites go and then punish him, his people severely (killed firstborn babies)for something God orchestrated and was responsible for. Why? This is absurd because free moral choice is the essential component which justifies the concepts of reward and punishment. (Exodus 10:27-28) (Exodus 12:29-30)
-Even though God is omniscient, omnipotent therefore with perfect knowledge, perfect efficiency, infinite wisdom and even though because of his middle-knowledge and foreknowledge knew Jesus paid for the penalty of all sins including the sin Uzzah, therefore sinners only need to repent to achieve salvation(he came up with this plan); he killed Uzzah instantly when tried to stop the ark of covenant to fall to the ground, therefore refusing him the opportunity to repent at all for his sin so to be forgiven and condemning him indirectly to everlasting destruction. Why? (2 Samuel 6:3-7)
-Even though God is perfectly good, therefore is not in his nature to condone, order evil things, even though the Israelites had a close and open relationship with this perfectly good God, even though the bible is said to be inspired by this perfectly good God we see the old testament condoning things like intolerance; murder of witches, gays, fornicaters, people that worship other gods; genocide, rape, slavery; sometimes even commanded by God. Why?(Exodus 22:17), (Leviticus 20:13), (Leviticus 20:27), (Numbers 1:48-51), (1 Samuel 6:19-20), (1 Kings 20:35-36), (1 Samuel 15:2-3), (1 Kings 14:9-16), (Exodus 21:7-11), (Exodus 21:20-21), (Leviticus 25:44-46), (Numbers 31:7-18), (Deuteronomy 20:10-14), (Deuteronomy 22:28-29), (Deuteronomy 22:23-24), (2 Kings 2:23-24).
-Even though God is omniscient, omnipotent, perfectly good chose to create a world with a system of justice(believe in God and Jesus’s sacrifice or else) that would lead to the majority of the humans he created to experience an everlasting torment in the lake of fire as a punishment. Why?(Matthew 10:28), (Revelation 20:14), (Revelation 4:9), (Revelation 15:7), (Revelation 20:10), (Revelation 14:10-11), (Matthew 25:41), (Matthew 25:46), (Jude 13), (Matthew 13:50), (Mark 9:43), (Mark 9:48).
Question for Christians!
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Question for Christians!
Post #21[Replying to post 1 by alexxcJRO]
How can we believe in God (Christianity) when there is pain and suffering in the world? Well because Christianity has explained it within its belief. If Christianity is Objectively True, then it is true what it says, that sin is in the world, and that suffering and pain are within the world. In fact, if there was none of this stuff in our world, we could argue Christianity is wrong because Christianity tells us there are these things in the world. And rightly so, because Christianity is true.
I believe in Christianity, because i believe Christianity is objectively true, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He came and fulfilled the prophesies, he was witnessed by many who testified about His life, death, and resurrection, which would confirm His claim to the Son of God. If that is objectively true, which i believe it is, then Christianity is objectively true.
How can we believe in God (Christianity) when there is pain and suffering in the world? Well because Christianity has explained it within its belief. If Christianity is Objectively True, then it is true what it says, that sin is in the world, and that suffering and pain are within the world. In fact, if there was none of this stuff in our world, we could argue Christianity is wrong because Christianity tells us there are these things in the world. And rightly so, because Christianity is true.
I believe in Christianity, because i believe Christianity is objectively true, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He came and fulfilled the prophesies, he was witnessed by many who testified about His life, death, and resurrection, which would confirm His claim to the Son of God. If that is objectively true, which i believe it is, then Christianity is objectively true.
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alexxcJRO
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Re: Question for Christians!
Post #22[Replying to post 15 by 1213]
"So are you saying that for example led lights can’t exist without stars? "
1. I am talking about natural light.
Light is a type of energy. It is a form of electromagnetic radiation of a wavelength which can be detected by the human eye. It is a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum and radiation given off by stars like the sun.
The day and night cycle, evening and morning cycle of our world, refers to the rising and setting of the Sun and Moon. This is a result of the rotation of the earth around its axis.
C: Therefore without stars we don't have natural light.
2. Many stars must be born and die for all the elements composed in the earth and the led emitting diodes to form (like Carbon, Oxygen, Iron, Gold, Germanium, Silicon, and so one).
We are all star dust.
Explosion of the Big Bang caused the formation of the universe some 14 billions years ago. During which only the lightest elements were formed: hydrogen, helium along with trace amounts of lithium and beryllium. As the cloud of cosmic dust and gases from the Big Bang cooled, stars formed, and these then grouped together to form galaxies. The other 86 elements (like for example Carbon, Oxygen, Iron, Gold, Germanium, Silicon) found in nature were created in nuclear reactions in these stars and in huge stellar explosions known as supernovae.
"How is that proven? "
Red algae appeared in the Proterozoic, probably over 1 billion years ago.
The red algae, or Rhodophyta are one of the oldest groups of eukaryotic algae, and also one of the largest, with about 5,000–6,000 species[3] of mostly multicellular, marine algae, including many notable seaweeds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_algae
The oldest eukaryotic body fossil is the multicellular alga, Grypania spiralis. Coiled
Grypania is found as thin films of carbon in the 2.1 billion-year-old Negaunee iron formation at the Empire Mine near Ishpeming, Michigan. The fossils are coiled forms of marine life that, if unwound, would stretch up to 9 cm (3.54 inches). Young specimens have been
recovered from 1.1-billion-year-old rocks in China.
http://kitto.cm.utexas.edu/courses/ch39 ... otes27.pdf
Evidence for the appearance of the first land plants occurs in the Ordovician, around 450 million years ago, in the form of fossil spores. Land plants began to diversify in the Late Silurian, from around 430 million years ago, and the results of their diversification are displayed in remarkable detail in an early Devonian fossil assemblage from the Rhynie chert. This chert, formed in volcanic hot springs, preserved several species of early plants in cellular detail by petrification.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution ... _of_plants
http://planet.uwc.ac.za/nisl/biodiversi ... age_43.htm
"How can you believe what you say? "
Let’s see what historians do:
Historians try to establish to the best of their ability what probably happened in the past.
What kinds of evidence do scholars look for when trying to establish probabilities in the past?
Well, the best kind of evidence, of course, consists of contemporary accounts; people who were close to the time of the events themselves, a reliable source that goes back to the time period itself.
There are only two sources of information for past events:
1. Stories that actually happened based on, ultimately, eyewitness accounts.
2 Stories that have been made up.
To determine which things are the things that happened,
1. You want contemporary accounts, that are close to the time of the events themselves.
2. You want these accounts to be independent of one another , that are not collaborated, you want accounts that corroborate one another; accounts that are consistent in what they have to say about the subject.
3. You want sources that are not biased toward the subject matter. You want accounts that are disinterested. You want lots of them, you want them independent from one another, yet you want them to be consistent with one another.
You have the same problems for all of the sources and all of our Gospels.
These are not historically reliable accounts. The authors were not eye witnesses; they’re Greek-speaking Christians living 35 to 65 years after the events they narrate. The accounts that they narrate are based on oral traditions that have been in circulation for decades. Year after year Christians trying to convert others told them stories to convince them(biased toward the subject matter and not disinterested) that Jesus was raised from the dead. These writers are telling stories, then, that Christians have been telling all these years. Many stories were invented, and most of the stories were changed. For that reason, these accounts are not as useful as we would like them to be for historical purposes. They’re not contemporary, they’re not disinterested, and they’re not consistent.
Even though the Gospels go under the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they were, in fact, written anonymously.
These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority. The Gospel of Mark was written before any of the other canonical gospels and was written after the fall of the second temple which occurred in 70 CE.
The canonical gospels upon which the Christian faith is built, the ones which present the words of Jesus are writings by unknown authors writing to buttress the particular points they wished to make. The quotations allegedly from Jesus were most likely, made up by the authors to support their positions.
The titles in our English Bibles are later additions; they are not original to the Gospels themselves.
The Gospel narratives are always written in the third person.
The tradition that they were written by two disciples (Matthew and John) and by two companions of the apostles (Mark and Luke) is first attested in the 2nd century!
What we can say for certain about the authors is that they were all highly educated, literate, Greek-speaking Christians of (at least) the second generation, contrast this with the apostles of Jesus, who were uneducated, lower class, illiterate, Aramaic-speaking peasants.
Q: Do we have multiple independent reliable sources that are not collaborated, consistent in what they have to say about the subject, that are not biased towards the subject, that are disinterested; relating to Jesus resurrection?
Q: Is there any historical proof that of apostols of Jesus being indeed killed or were at least persecuted for their belief, except the New Testament historical documents?
Q: Can historians prove historically that God(Yahweh) raise Jesus from the dead?
Q: Could some zealous jews that saw that their Messiah Jesus died on the cross like some weak mere mortal, because of cognitive dissonance said to themselves: Jesus can’t be dead , and they start telling stories about Jesus being resurrected?(The third-day belief could be a byproduct of this engagement with Jewish scriptures, with some likely scriptural candidates being Hosea 6:2, a Jewish sacred third-day tradition, and Psalms 16:10)
(Traditions expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7, widely recognized amongst scholars on both sides of the aisle to represent the earliest known Christian beliefs and traditions, in existence well before any of the gospels were written:
“For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.�)
Who Wrote the Four Gospels of the New Testament? An Introduction to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historica ... he_Gospels
http://www.humanreligions.info/gospels.html
What about all this other Gospels ?
They are not inspired by God? They chose 4 gospels out of hundreds. Pick and choose what you like.
The same Christians do about bible verses.
Let's look at the apocalypse of Peter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Peter
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... james.html
In heaven, in the vision,
-People have pure milky white skin, curly hair, and are generally beautiful
-The earth blooms with everlasting flowers and spices
-People wear shiny clothes made of light, like the angels
-Everyone sings in choral prayer
The punishments in the vision each closely correspond to the past sinful actions in a version of the Jewish notion of an eye for an eye, that the punishment may fit the crime. Some of the punishments in hell according to the vision include:
-Blasphemers are hanged by the tongue.
-Women who "adorn" themselves for the purpose of adultery, are hung by the hair over a bubbling mire. The men who had adulterous relationships with them are hung by their feet, with their heads in the mire, next to them.
-Murderers and those who give consent to murder are set in a pit of creeping things that torment them.
-Men who take on the role of women in a sexual way, and lesbians, are "driven" up a great cliff by punishing angels, and are "cast off" to the bottom. Then they are forced up it, over and over again, ceaselessly, to their doom.
-Women who have abortions are set in a lake formed from the blood and gore from all the other punishments, up to their necks. They are also tormented by the spirits of their unborn children, who shoot a "flash of fire" into their eyes. (Those unborn children are "delivered to a care-taking" angel by whom they are educated, and "made to grow up.")
-Those who lend money and demand "usury upon usury" stand up to their knees in a lake of foul matter and blood.
It's clear why they didn't chose this gospel. Nobody would have believed the bible to be true or that is somehow the word of God.
"So are you saying that for example led lights can’t exist without stars? "
1. I am talking about natural light.
Light is a type of energy. It is a form of electromagnetic radiation of a wavelength which can be detected by the human eye. It is a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum and radiation given off by stars like the sun.
The day and night cycle, evening and morning cycle of our world, refers to the rising and setting of the Sun and Moon. This is a result of the rotation of the earth around its axis.
C: Therefore without stars we don't have natural light.
2. Many stars must be born and die for all the elements composed in the earth and the led emitting diodes to form (like Carbon, Oxygen, Iron, Gold, Germanium, Silicon, and so one).
We are all star dust.
Explosion of the Big Bang caused the formation of the universe some 14 billions years ago. During which only the lightest elements were formed: hydrogen, helium along with trace amounts of lithium and beryllium. As the cloud of cosmic dust and gases from the Big Bang cooled, stars formed, and these then grouped together to form galaxies. The other 86 elements (like for example Carbon, Oxygen, Iron, Gold, Germanium, Silicon) found in nature were created in nuclear reactions in these stars and in huge stellar explosions known as supernovae.
"How is that proven? "
Red algae appeared in the Proterozoic, probably over 1 billion years ago.
The red algae, or Rhodophyta are one of the oldest groups of eukaryotic algae, and also one of the largest, with about 5,000–6,000 species[3] of mostly multicellular, marine algae, including many notable seaweeds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_algae
The oldest eukaryotic body fossil is the multicellular alga, Grypania spiralis. Coiled
Grypania is found as thin films of carbon in the 2.1 billion-year-old Negaunee iron formation at the Empire Mine near Ishpeming, Michigan. The fossils are coiled forms of marine life that, if unwound, would stretch up to 9 cm (3.54 inches). Young specimens have been
recovered from 1.1-billion-year-old rocks in China.
http://kitto.cm.utexas.edu/courses/ch39 ... otes27.pdf
Evidence for the appearance of the first land plants occurs in the Ordovician, around 450 million years ago, in the form of fossil spores. Land plants began to diversify in the Late Silurian, from around 430 million years ago, and the results of their diversification are displayed in remarkable detail in an early Devonian fossil assemblage from the Rhynie chert. This chert, formed in volcanic hot springs, preserved several species of early plants in cellular detail by petrification.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution ... _of_plants
http://planet.uwc.ac.za/nisl/biodiversi ... age_43.htm
"How can you believe what you say? "
Let’s see what historians do:
Historians try to establish to the best of their ability what probably happened in the past.
What kinds of evidence do scholars look for when trying to establish probabilities in the past?
Well, the best kind of evidence, of course, consists of contemporary accounts; people who were close to the time of the events themselves, a reliable source that goes back to the time period itself.
There are only two sources of information for past events:
1. Stories that actually happened based on, ultimately, eyewitness accounts.
2 Stories that have been made up.
To determine which things are the things that happened,
1. You want contemporary accounts, that are close to the time of the events themselves.
2. You want these accounts to be independent of one another , that are not collaborated, you want accounts that corroborate one another; accounts that are consistent in what they have to say about the subject.
3. You want sources that are not biased toward the subject matter. You want accounts that are disinterested. You want lots of them, you want them independent from one another, yet you want them to be consistent with one another.
You have the same problems for all of the sources and all of our Gospels.
These are not historically reliable accounts. The authors were not eye witnesses; they’re Greek-speaking Christians living 35 to 65 years after the events they narrate. The accounts that they narrate are based on oral traditions that have been in circulation for decades. Year after year Christians trying to convert others told them stories to convince them(biased toward the subject matter and not disinterested) that Jesus was raised from the dead. These writers are telling stories, then, that Christians have been telling all these years. Many stories were invented, and most of the stories were changed. For that reason, these accounts are not as useful as we would like them to be for historical purposes. They’re not contemporary, they’re not disinterested, and they’re not consistent.
Even though the Gospels go under the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they were, in fact, written anonymously.
These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority. The Gospel of Mark was written before any of the other canonical gospels and was written after the fall of the second temple which occurred in 70 CE.
The canonical gospels upon which the Christian faith is built, the ones which present the words of Jesus are writings by unknown authors writing to buttress the particular points they wished to make. The quotations allegedly from Jesus were most likely, made up by the authors to support their positions.
The titles in our English Bibles are later additions; they are not original to the Gospels themselves.
The Gospel narratives are always written in the third person.
The tradition that they were written by two disciples (Matthew and John) and by two companions of the apostles (Mark and Luke) is first attested in the 2nd century!
What we can say for certain about the authors is that they were all highly educated, literate, Greek-speaking Christians of (at least) the second generation, contrast this with the apostles of Jesus, who were uneducated, lower class, illiterate, Aramaic-speaking peasants.
Q: Do we have multiple independent reliable sources that are not collaborated, consistent in what they have to say about the subject, that are not biased towards the subject, that are disinterested; relating to Jesus resurrection?
Q: Is there any historical proof that of apostols of Jesus being indeed killed or were at least persecuted for their belief, except the New Testament historical documents?
Q: Can historians prove historically that God(Yahweh) raise Jesus from the dead?
Q: Could some zealous jews that saw that their Messiah Jesus died on the cross like some weak mere mortal, because of cognitive dissonance said to themselves: Jesus can’t be dead , and they start telling stories about Jesus being resurrected?(The third-day belief could be a byproduct of this engagement with Jewish scriptures, with some likely scriptural candidates being Hosea 6:2, a Jewish sacred third-day tradition, and Psalms 16:10)
(Traditions expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7, widely recognized amongst scholars on both sides of the aisle to represent the earliest known Christian beliefs and traditions, in existence well before any of the gospels were written:
“For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.�)
Who Wrote the Four Gospels of the New Testament? An Introduction to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historica ... he_Gospels
http://www.humanreligions.info/gospels.html
What about all this other Gospels ?
They are not inspired by God? They chose 4 gospels out of hundreds. Pick and choose what you like.
The same Christians do about bible verses.
Let's look at the apocalypse of Peter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Peter
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... james.html
In heaven, in the vision,
-People have pure milky white skin, curly hair, and are generally beautiful
-The earth blooms with everlasting flowers and spices
-People wear shiny clothes made of light, like the angels
-Everyone sings in choral prayer
The punishments in the vision each closely correspond to the past sinful actions in a version of the Jewish notion of an eye for an eye, that the punishment may fit the crime. Some of the punishments in hell according to the vision include:
-Blasphemers are hanged by the tongue.
-Women who "adorn" themselves for the purpose of adultery, are hung by the hair over a bubbling mire. The men who had adulterous relationships with them are hung by their feet, with their heads in the mire, next to them.
-Murderers and those who give consent to murder are set in a pit of creeping things that torment them.
-Men who take on the role of women in a sexual way, and lesbians, are "driven" up a great cliff by punishing angels, and are "cast off" to the bottom. Then they are forced up it, over and over again, ceaselessly, to their doom.
-Women who have abortions are set in a lake formed from the blood and gore from all the other punishments, up to their necks. They are also tormented by the spirits of their unborn children, who shoot a "flash of fire" into their eyes. (Those unborn children are "delivered to a care-taking" angel by whom they are educated, and "made to grow up.")
-Those who lend money and demand "usury upon usury" stand up to their knees in a lake of foul matter and blood.
It's clear why they didn't chose this gospel. Nobody would have believed the bible to be true or that is somehow the word of God.
-
alexxcJRO
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- Posts: 1624
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Re: Question for Christians!
Post #23[Replying to post 15 by 1213]
"Actually I tis quite easy because we don’t have any solid proof for old age. "
Seriously man?
Here multiple things older then 4000BC.
A.Göbekli Tepe
Göbekli Tepe is an archaeological site at the top of a mountain ridge in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of modern-day Turkey, approximately 12 km (7 mi) northeast of the city of Şanlıurfa. The tell has a height of 15 m (49 feet) and is about 300 m (984 feet) in diameter. It is approximately 760 m (2,493 feet) above sea level. The tell includes two phases of ritual use dating back to the 10th – 8th millennium BCE. During the first phase, pre-pottery Neolithic A (PPNA), circles of massive T-shaped stone pillars were erected. More than 200 pillars in about 20 circles are currently known through geophysical surveys. Each pillar has a height of up to 6 m (20 feet) and a weight of up to 20 tons. They are fitted into sockets that were hewn out of the bedrock. In the second phase, Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB), the erected pillars are smaller and stood in rectangular rooms with floors of polished lime. The site was abandoned after the PPNB-period. Younger structures date to classical times.
The purpose of the structures is not yet clear. It was excavated by a German archaeological team under the direction of Klaus Schmidt from 1996 until his death in 2014; Schmidt believed that they had been early neolithic sanctuaries.
Discovery:
The site was first noted in a survey conducted by Istanbul University and the University of Chicago in 1963. American archaeologist Peter Benedict identified it as being possibly neolithic and postulated that the Neolithic layers were topped by Byzantine and Islamic cemeteries. The survey noted numerous flints. Huge limestone slabs, upper parts of the T-shaped pillars, were thought to be grave markers. The hill had long been under agricultural cultivation, and generations of local inhabitants had frequently moved rocks and placed them in clearance piles, possibly destroying archaeological evidence in the process. In 1994, Klaus Schmidt, of the German Archaeological Institute, who had previously been working at Nevalı Çori, was looking for another site to lead a dig. He reviewed the archaeological literature on the surrounding area, found the Chicago researchers’ brief description of Göbekli Tepe, and decided to give it another look. With his knowledge of comparable objects at Nevalı Çori, he recognized the possibility that the rocks and slabs were parts of T-shaped pillars. The following year, he began excavating there in collaboration with the Şanlıurfa Museum. Huge T-shaped pillars were soon discovered. Some had apparently been subjected to attempts at smashing, probably by farmers who mistook them for ordinary large rocks. The nearby Gürcütepe site—also Neolithic—was not excavated until 2000.
Dating:
The imposing stratigraphy of Göbekli Tepe attests to many centuries of activity, beginning at least as early as the epipaleolithic period. Structures identified with the succeeding period, Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA), have been dated to the 10th millennium BCE. Remains of smaller buildings identified as Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB) and dating from the 9th millennium BCE have also been unearthed.
A number of radiocarbon dates have been published. They are reproduced below with errors of one standard deviation, calibrated to the BCE:
Lab-Number Date BP Cal BCE Context
Ua-19561 8430 ± 80 7560–7370 enclosure C
Ua-19562 8960 ± 85 8280–7970 enclosure B
Hd-20025 9452 ± 73 9110–8620 Layer III
Hd-20036 9559 ± 53 9130–8800 Layer III
The Hd samples are from charcoal in the lowest levels of the site and would date the active phase of occupation. The Ua samples come from pedogenic carbonate coatings on pillars and only indicate the time after the site was abandoned—the terminus ante quem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe
B.Human and sub-human fossils
1. Turkana Boy, now called Nariokotome Boy, is the common name of Homo erectus fossil KNM-WT 15000, a nearly complete skeleton of a hominin youth who lived during the early Pleistocene. This specimen is the most complete early human skeleton ever found. It is believed to be between 1.5 and 1.6 million years old. Estimates of his age at death range from seven to 18 years old; the most recent scientific review suggests eight years. It was initially suggested that he would have grown into a 185 centimetres (73 in) tall adult, but the most recent analysis argues for the much shorter stature of 163 centimetres (64 in). The reason for this shift has been research showing that his growth maturation differed from that of modern humans in that he would have had a briefer and smaller adolescent growth spurt. The skeleton was discovered in 1984 by Kamoya Kimeu, a member of a team led by Richard Leakey, at Nariokotome near Lake Turkana in Kenya.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_Boy
2. KNM ER 3733 is a fossilized hominid cranium of the extinct hominid Homo ergaster, which is interchangeably referred to as Homo erectus. It was discovered in 1975 in Koobi Fora, Kenya, right next to Lake Turkana, by Bernard Ngeneo, a field worker for Richard Leakey. Its geographic location is not to be confused with that of KNM WT 15000, Turkana Boy, also known as Nariokotome Boy, who was also found near Lake Turkana nine years later in 1984. KNM ER 3733 is one of the oldest Homo ergaster skulls in the world. Recent research using magneto stratigraphy has determined the age of KNM-ER 3733 to be about 1.6 million years old. KNM ER 3733 is a find of a near-complete cranium. Its brain size is about 850cc. KNM ER 3733 was compared to male fossils KNM ER 3833 and KNM WT 15000 (Turkana Boy), who were also found at the Koobi Fora site, and because of this, is said to be female. The features of KNM ER 3733 are less robust compared to the two male crania. It is considered an adult because of the extensive wear of its teeth, the fact that its third molars were present before the individual died, and because its cranial sutures were fully fused, which is only possible in adult specimen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KNM_ER_3733
3. La Ferrassie 1 is a male Neanderthal skeleton estimated to be 70–50,000 years old. It was discovered at the La Ferrassie site in France by Louis Capitan and Denis Peyrony in 1909. The skull is the largest and most complete Neanderthal skull ever found. The skull displays many of the "classic" examples of Neanderthal anatomy, including a low sloping forehead and large nasal openings. His leg and feet bones makes it clear that Neanderthals walked upright like modern humans. The teeth are well preserved and the incisors are heavily worn down, suggesting they were used to hold objects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Ferrassie_1
http://efossils.org/page/boneviewer/Hom ... rassie%201
4. The Hofmeyr Skull is a specimen of a 36,000 year old human skull that was found in 1952 near Hofmeyr, South Africa. It is one of a very few anatomically modern human skulls that have been discovered on the continent which have been dated to over 20,000 years old.
Analysis:
It was not possible to date the skull using traditional radiocarbon dating, as the carbon had leached out of the bone. Instead, a new method involving a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods was used. The method was developed by Richard Bailey of Oxford University. The earth material from the skull "filling the endocranial cavity" (central portion of the endocranial cavity) was dated using a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods, coupled through a radiation-field model. Based on the assumption that the earth in the skull is about the age of its inhumation and thus the same as the age of the skull, age was estimated to 36,200 ± 3,200 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmeyr_Skull
C.The Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc Cave Paintings
The Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc Cave in the Ardèche department of southern France is a cave that contains the earliest known and best preserved figurative cave paintings in the world, as well as other evidence of Upper Paleolithic life. It is located near the commune of Vallon-Pont-d'Arc on a limestone cliff above the former bed of the Ardèche River, in the Gorges de l'Ardèche. Discovered on December 18, 1994, it is considered one of the most significant prehistoric art sites and the UN’s cultural agency UNESCO granted it the World Heritage status on June 22, 2014.
The cave was first explored by a group of three speleologists: Eliette Brunel-Deschamps, Christian Hillaire, and Jean-Marie Chauvet for whom it was named. Chauvet (1996) has a detailed account of the discovery. In addition to the paintings and other human evidence, they also discovered fossilized remains, prints, and markings from a variety of animals, some of which are now extinct. Further study by French
archaeologist Jean Clottes has revealed much about the site. The dates have been a matter of dispute but a study published in 2012 supports placing the art in the Aurignacian period, approximately 32,000–30,000 years BP. As recently as spring 2016, an additional 88 radiocarbon dates indicate two periods of habitation. One from 37,000 to 35,000 years ago and another from 31,000 to 28,000.
Paintings:
Hundreds of animal paintings have been catalogued, depicting at least 13 different species, including some rarely or never found in other ice age paintings. Rather than depicting only the familiar herbivores that predominate in Paleolithic cave art, i.e. horses, cattle, mammoths, etc., the walls of the Chauvet Cave feature many predatory animals, e.g., cave lions, panthers, bears, and cave hyenas. There are also paintings of rhinoceroses.
Typical of most cave art, there are no paintings of complete human figures, although there is one partial "Venus" figure composed of a vulva attached to an incomplete pair of legs. Above the Venus, and in contact with it, is a bison head, which has led some to describe the composite drawing as a Minotaur. There are a few panels of red ochre hand prints and hand stencils made by blowing pigment over hands pressed against the cave surface. Abstract markings—lines and dots—are found throughout the cave. There are also two unidentifiable images that have a vaguely butterfly or avian shape to them. This combination of subjects has led some students of prehistoric art and cultures to believe that there was a ritual, shamanic, or magical aspect to these paintings. The artists who produced these unique paintings used techniques rarely found in other cave art.
Many of the paintings appear to have been made only after the walls were scraped clear of debris and concretions, leaving a smoother and noticeably lighter area upon which the artists worked. Similarly, a three-dimensional quality and the suggestion of movement are achieved by incising or etching around the outlines of certain figures. The art is also exceptional for its time for including "scenes", e.g., animals interacting with each other; a pair of woolly rhinoceroses, for example, are seen butting horns in an apparent contest for territory or mating rights.
Dating:
The cave contains some of the oldest known cave paintings, based on radiocarbon dating of "black from drawings, from torch marks and from the floors", according to Jean Clottes. Clottes concludes that the "dates fall into two groups, one centered around 27,000–26,000 BP and the other around 32,000–30,000 BP." As of 1999, the dates of 31 samples from the cave had been reported. The earliest, sample Gifa 99776 from "zone 10", dates to 32,900 ± 490 BP. Some archaeologists have questioned these dates. Christian Züchner, relying on stylistic comparisons with similar paintings at other well-dated sites, expressed the opinion that the red paintings are from the Gravettian period (c. 28,000–23,000 BP) and the black paintings are from the Early Magdalenian period (early part of c. 18,000–10,000 BP). Pettitt and Bahn also contended that the dating is inconsistent with the traditional stylistic sequence and that there is uncertainty about the source of the charcoal used in the drawings and the extent of surface contamination on the exposed rock surfaces. Stylistic studies showed that some Gravettian engravings are superimposed on black paintings proving the paintings' older origins. By 2011, more than 80 radiocarbon dates had been taken, with samples from torch marks and from the paintings themselves, as well as from animal bones and charcoal found on the cave floor. The radiocarbon dates from these samples suggest that there were two periods of creation in Chauvet: 35,000 years ago and 30,000 years ago. A research article published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in May 2012 by scientists from the University of Savoy, Aix-Marseille University and the Centre National de Prehistoire confirmed that the paintings were created by people in the Aurignacian era, between 30,000 and 32,000 years ago. The researchers’ findings are based on the analysis using geomorphological and 36 Cl dating of the rock slide surfaces around what is believed to be the cave’s only entrance. Their analysis showed that the entrance was sealed by a collapsing cliff some 29,000 years ago. Their findings put the date of human presence in the cave and the paintings in line with that deduced from radiocarbon dating, i.e., between 32,000–30,000 years BP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvet_Cave
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/chauv ... ve_art.php
"Actually I tis quite easy because we don’t have any solid proof for old age. "
Seriously man?
Here multiple things older then 4000BC.
A.Göbekli Tepe
Göbekli Tepe is an archaeological site at the top of a mountain ridge in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of modern-day Turkey, approximately 12 km (7 mi) northeast of the city of Şanlıurfa. The tell has a height of 15 m (49 feet) and is about 300 m (984 feet) in diameter. It is approximately 760 m (2,493 feet) above sea level. The tell includes two phases of ritual use dating back to the 10th – 8th millennium BCE. During the first phase, pre-pottery Neolithic A (PPNA), circles of massive T-shaped stone pillars were erected. More than 200 pillars in about 20 circles are currently known through geophysical surveys. Each pillar has a height of up to 6 m (20 feet) and a weight of up to 20 tons. They are fitted into sockets that were hewn out of the bedrock. In the second phase, Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB), the erected pillars are smaller and stood in rectangular rooms with floors of polished lime. The site was abandoned after the PPNB-period. Younger structures date to classical times.
The purpose of the structures is not yet clear. It was excavated by a German archaeological team under the direction of Klaus Schmidt from 1996 until his death in 2014; Schmidt believed that they had been early neolithic sanctuaries.
Discovery:
The site was first noted in a survey conducted by Istanbul University and the University of Chicago in 1963. American archaeologist Peter Benedict identified it as being possibly neolithic and postulated that the Neolithic layers were topped by Byzantine and Islamic cemeteries. The survey noted numerous flints. Huge limestone slabs, upper parts of the T-shaped pillars, were thought to be grave markers. The hill had long been under agricultural cultivation, and generations of local inhabitants had frequently moved rocks and placed them in clearance piles, possibly destroying archaeological evidence in the process. In 1994, Klaus Schmidt, of the German Archaeological Institute, who had previously been working at Nevalı Çori, was looking for another site to lead a dig. He reviewed the archaeological literature on the surrounding area, found the Chicago researchers’ brief description of Göbekli Tepe, and decided to give it another look. With his knowledge of comparable objects at Nevalı Çori, he recognized the possibility that the rocks and slabs were parts of T-shaped pillars. The following year, he began excavating there in collaboration with the Şanlıurfa Museum. Huge T-shaped pillars were soon discovered. Some had apparently been subjected to attempts at smashing, probably by farmers who mistook them for ordinary large rocks. The nearby Gürcütepe site—also Neolithic—was not excavated until 2000.
Dating:
The imposing stratigraphy of Göbekli Tepe attests to many centuries of activity, beginning at least as early as the epipaleolithic period. Structures identified with the succeeding period, Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA), have been dated to the 10th millennium BCE. Remains of smaller buildings identified as Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB) and dating from the 9th millennium BCE have also been unearthed.
A number of radiocarbon dates have been published. They are reproduced below with errors of one standard deviation, calibrated to the BCE:
Lab-Number Date BP Cal BCE Context
Ua-19561 8430 ± 80 7560–7370 enclosure C
Ua-19562 8960 ± 85 8280–7970 enclosure B
Hd-20025 9452 ± 73 9110–8620 Layer III
Hd-20036 9559 ± 53 9130–8800 Layer III
The Hd samples are from charcoal in the lowest levels of the site and would date the active phase of occupation. The Ua samples come from pedogenic carbonate coatings on pillars and only indicate the time after the site was abandoned—the terminus ante quem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe
B.Human and sub-human fossils
1. Turkana Boy, now called Nariokotome Boy, is the common name of Homo erectus fossil KNM-WT 15000, a nearly complete skeleton of a hominin youth who lived during the early Pleistocene. This specimen is the most complete early human skeleton ever found. It is believed to be between 1.5 and 1.6 million years old. Estimates of his age at death range from seven to 18 years old; the most recent scientific review suggests eight years. It was initially suggested that he would have grown into a 185 centimetres (73 in) tall adult, but the most recent analysis argues for the much shorter stature of 163 centimetres (64 in). The reason for this shift has been research showing that his growth maturation differed from that of modern humans in that he would have had a briefer and smaller adolescent growth spurt. The skeleton was discovered in 1984 by Kamoya Kimeu, a member of a team led by Richard Leakey, at Nariokotome near Lake Turkana in Kenya.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_Boy
2. KNM ER 3733 is a fossilized hominid cranium of the extinct hominid Homo ergaster, which is interchangeably referred to as Homo erectus. It was discovered in 1975 in Koobi Fora, Kenya, right next to Lake Turkana, by Bernard Ngeneo, a field worker for Richard Leakey. Its geographic location is not to be confused with that of KNM WT 15000, Turkana Boy, also known as Nariokotome Boy, who was also found near Lake Turkana nine years later in 1984. KNM ER 3733 is one of the oldest Homo ergaster skulls in the world. Recent research using magneto stratigraphy has determined the age of KNM-ER 3733 to be about 1.6 million years old. KNM ER 3733 is a find of a near-complete cranium. Its brain size is about 850cc. KNM ER 3733 was compared to male fossils KNM ER 3833 and KNM WT 15000 (Turkana Boy), who were also found at the Koobi Fora site, and because of this, is said to be female. The features of KNM ER 3733 are less robust compared to the two male crania. It is considered an adult because of the extensive wear of its teeth, the fact that its third molars were present before the individual died, and because its cranial sutures were fully fused, which is only possible in adult specimen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KNM_ER_3733
3. La Ferrassie 1 is a male Neanderthal skeleton estimated to be 70–50,000 years old. It was discovered at the La Ferrassie site in France by Louis Capitan and Denis Peyrony in 1909. The skull is the largest and most complete Neanderthal skull ever found. The skull displays many of the "classic" examples of Neanderthal anatomy, including a low sloping forehead and large nasal openings. His leg and feet bones makes it clear that Neanderthals walked upright like modern humans. The teeth are well preserved and the incisors are heavily worn down, suggesting they were used to hold objects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Ferrassie_1
http://efossils.org/page/boneviewer/Hom ... rassie%201
4. The Hofmeyr Skull is a specimen of a 36,000 year old human skull that was found in 1952 near Hofmeyr, South Africa. It is one of a very few anatomically modern human skulls that have been discovered on the continent which have been dated to over 20,000 years old.
Analysis:
It was not possible to date the skull using traditional radiocarbon dating, as the carbon had leached out of the bone. Instead, a new method involving a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods was used. The method was developed by Richard Bailey of Oxford University. The earth material from the skull "filling the endocranial cavity" (central portion of the endocranial cavity) was dated using a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods, coupled through a radiation-field model. Based on the assumption that the earth in the skull is about the age of its inhumation and thus the same as the age of the skull, age was estimated to 36,200 ± 3,200 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmeyr_Skull
C.The Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc Cave Paintings
The Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc Cave in the Ardèche department of southern France is a cave that contains the earliest known and best preserved figurative cave paintings in the world, as well as other evidence of Upper Paleolithic life. It is located near the commune of Vallon-Pont-d'Arc on a limestone cliff above the former bed of the Ardèche River, in the Gorges de l'Ardèche. Discovered on December 18, 1994, it is considered one of the most significant prehistoric art sites and the UN’s cultural agency UNESCO granted it the World Heritage status on June 22, 2014.
The cave was first explored by a group of three speleologists: Eliette Brunel-Deschamps, Christian Hillaire, and Jean-Marie Chauvet for whom it was named. Chauvet (1996) has a detailed account of the discovery. In addition to the paintings and other human evidence, they also discovered fossilized remains, prints, and markings from a variety of animals, some of which are now extinct. Further study by French
archaeologist Jean Clottes has revealed much about the site. The dates have been a matter of dispute but a study published in 2012 supports placing the art in the Aurignacian period, approximately 32,000–30,000 years BP. As recently as spring 2016, an additional 88 radiocarbon dates indicate two periods of habitation. One from 37,000 to 35,000 years ago and another from 31,000 to 28,000.
Paintings:
Hundreds of animal paintings have been catalogued, depicting at least 13 different species, including some rarely or never found in other ice age paintings. Rather than depicting only the familiar herbivores that predominate in Paleolithic cave art, i.e. horses, cattle, mammoths, etc., the walls of the Chauvet Cave feature many predatory animals, e.g., cave lions, panthers, bears, and cave hyenas. There are also paintings of rhinoceroses.
Typical of most cave art, there are no paintings of complete human figures, although there is one partial "Venus" figure composed of a vulva attached to an incomplete pair of legs. Above the Venus, and in contact with it, is a bison head, which has led some to describe the composite drawing as a Minotaur. There are a few panels of red ochre hand prints and hand stencils made by blowing pigment over hands pressed against the cave surface. Abstract markings—lines and dots—are found throughout the cave. There are also two unidentifiable images that have a vaguely butterfly or avian shape to them. This combination of subjects has led some students of prehistoric art and cultures to believe that there was a ritual, shamanic, or magical aspect to these paintings. The artists who produced these unique paintings used techniques rarely found in other cave art.
Many of the paintings appear to have been made only after the walls were scraped clear of debris and concretions, leaving a smoother and noticeably lighter area upon which the artists worked. Similarly, a three-dimensional quality and the suggestion of movement are achieved by incising or etching around the outlines of certain figures. The art is also exceptional for its time for including "scenes", e.g., animals interacting with each other; a pair of woolly rhinoceroses, for example, are seen butting horns in an apparent contest for territory or mating rights.
Dating:
The cave contains some of the oldest known cave paintings, based on radiocarbon dating of "black from drawings, from torch marks and from the floors", according to Jean Clottes. Clottes concludes that the "dates fall into two groups, one centered around 27,000–26,000 BP and the other around 32,000–30,000 BP." As of 1999, the dates of 31 samples from the cave had been reported. The earliest, sample Gifa 99776 from "zone 10", dates to 32,900 ± 490 BP. Some archaeologists have questioned these dates. Christian Züchner, relying on stylistic comparisons with similar paintings at other well-dated sites, expressed the opinion that the red paintings are from the Gravettian period (c. 28,000–23,000 BP) and the black paintings are from the Early Magdalenian period (early part of c. 18,000–10,000 BP). Pettitt and Bahn also contended that the dating is inconsistent with the traditional stylistic sequence and that there is uncertainty about the source of the charcoal used in the drawings and the extent of surface contamination on the exposed rock surfaces. Stylistic studies showed that some Gravettian engravings are superimposed on black paintings proving the paintings' older origins. By 2011, more than 80 radiocarbon dates had been taken, with samples from torch marks and from the paintings themselves, as well as from animal bones and charcoal found on the cave floor. The radiocarbon dates from these samples suggest that there were two periods of creation in Chauvet: 35,000 years ago and 30,000 years ago. A research article published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in May 2012 by scientists from the University of Savoy, Aix-Marseille University and the Centre National de Prehistoire confirmed that the paintings were created by people in the Aurignacian era, between 30,000 and 32,000 years ago. The researchers’ findings are based on the analysis using geomorphological and 36 Cl dating of the rock slide surfaces around what is believed to be the cave’s only entrance. Their analysis showed that the entrance was sealed by a collapsing cliff some 29,000 years ago. Their findings put the date of human presence in the cave and the paintings in line with that deduced from radiocarbon dating, i.e., between 32,000–30,000 years BP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvet_Cave
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/chauv ... ve_art.php
Re: Question for Christians!
Post #24Assuming of course that your self-made theology is the only "proper" Christian thinking. I have challenged your theology countless times, resulting in you ignoring half of my questions and eventually stop responding entirely, usually throwing a threat of placing me on ignore the moment I paraphrase something not to your liking. This message will probably not reach you since I'm probably on ignore alreadyttruscott wrote: 3.
I'm pretty sure there is no problem of evil as I can find none in my theology, so when you can summarize what is bothering you, I will tell you how proper Christian thinking resolves the conflict.
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Re: Question for Christians!
Post #25[Replying to post 15 by 1213]
"Bible doesn’t condone murder, which is unlawful killing. It doesn’t also condone rape. "
Are you for real:)) The dishonesty is preposterous.
Your bible says otherwise, have a look at these verses:
1. Killing the Good Samaritan
“The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before
the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. “(2 Samuel 6:3-7)
2. Killed by a Lion
“Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!� But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.� And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.�(1 Kings 20:35-36)
3. Mass Murder
“This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ “(1 Samuel 15:2-3)
4. God Promises More Killing
“I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.�(Ezekiel 35:7-9 )
5. Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites
“They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?� he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.� (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
6. More Murder Rape and Pillage
“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.�(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
7. More Rape and Baby Killing
“Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.�(Isaiah 13:15-18)
8. Kill Witches
“You should not let a sorceress live.�(Exodus 22:17)
9. Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.� (Leviticus 20:13)
10. Kill Fortunetellers
“A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.� (Leviticus 20:27)
11. Death for Adultery
“If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.� (Leviticus 20:10)
12. Death for Fornication
“A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.� (Leviticus 21:9)
13. Sex slave
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.�(Exodus 21:7-11)
14. Beating your slave to death
“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.� (Exodus 21:20-21)
15. Slaves as property
“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.� (Leviticus 25:44-46)
16. Laws of Rape
“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.� (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
17. Death to the Rape Victim
“If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.� (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)
"Bible doesn’t condone murder, which is unlawful killing. It doesn’t also condone rape. "
Are you for real:)) The dishonesty is preposterous.
Your bible says otherwise, have a look at these verses:
1. Killing the Good Samaritan
“The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before
the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. “(2 Samuel 6:3-7)
2. Killed by a Lion
“Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!� But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.� And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.�(1 Kings 20:35-36)
3. Mass Murder
“This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ “(1 Samuel 15:2-3)
4. God Promises More Killing
“I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.�(Ezekiel 35:7-9 )
5. Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites
“They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?� he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.� (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
6. More Murder Rape and Pillage
“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.�(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
7. More Rape and Baby Killing
“Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.�(Isaiah 13:15-18)
8. Kill Witches
“You should not let a sorceress live.�(Exodus 22:17)
9. Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.� (Leviticus 20:13)
10. Kill Fortunetellers
“A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.� (Leviticus 20:27)
11. Death for Adultery
“If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.� (Leviticus 20:10)
12. Death for Fornication
“A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.� (Leviticus 21:9)
13. Sex slave
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.�(Exodus 21:7-11)
14. Beating your slave to death
“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.� (Exodus 21:20-21)
15. Slaves as property
“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.� (Leviticus 25:44-46)
16. Laws of Rape
“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.� (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
17. Death to the Rape Victim
“If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.� (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)
Last edited by alexxcJRO on Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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alexxcJRO
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Re: Question for Christians!
Post #26[Replying to post 15 by 1213]
"The message is perfectly ok for those who want to understand. "
Seriously the reality does not prove your point.
Nothing seems to prove your point.
A.The three main branches of Christianity are Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestant. Some regard Anglicanism as a fourth branch that fits in none of these categories, while others categorize it as Protestant.
B.Denominations today are many and varied. The original “mainline� denominations mentioned above have spawned numerous offshoots such as Assemblies of God, Christian and Missionary Alliance, Nazarenes, Evangelical Free, independent Bible churches, and others.
There seems to be at least one major problems with denominationalism. Nowhere in Scripture is there a mandate for denominationalism; to the contrary the mandate is for union and connectivity.
C.Concept of hell lead to 4 major theological views
1.Augustinians
2.Arminians
3.Universalists
4.Annihilationists
D.Christians argue about whether salvation can be lost or not.
E.The Young Creationist versus Old Creationists
F. ttruscot said for example : We chose to be with God or not before we are born .
So at the moment of birth we are either saved or not saved .
"Everyone by their own free will chose to be either YHWH's family (elect, under the promise of salvation from sin) or HIS eternal enemy, rejecting HIS promise of salvation from any sin and unable to save themselves from sin to become righteous. After this choice, all sinners are born as humans."
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 572#805572
If you make combinations of all possible scenarios you get as many as Christians beliefs as many people.
What confusing must be for a non-believer to see all this mess.
Would say : Now what? Which to choose?
Who is wrong and who is right?[/i]
"The message is perfectly ok for those who want to understand. "
Seriously the reality does not prove your point.
Nothing seems to prove your point.
A.The three main branches of Christianity are Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestant. Some regard Anglicanism as a fourth branch that fits in none of these categories, while others categorize it as Protestant.
B.Denominations today are many and varied. The original “mainline� denominations mentioned above have spawned numerous offshoots such as Assemblies of God, Christian and Missionary Alliance, Nazarenes, Evangelical Free, independent Bible churches, and others.
There seems to be at least one major problems with denominationalism. Nowhere in Scripture is there a mandate for denominationalism; to the contrary the mandate is for union and connectivity.
C.Concept of hell lead to 4 major theological views
1.Augustinians
2.Arminians
3.Universalists
4.Annihilationists
D.Christians argue about whether salvation can be lost or not.
E.The Young Creationist versus Old Creationists
F. ttruscot said for example : We chose to be with God or not before we are born .
So at the moment of birth we are either saved or not saved .
"Everyone by their own free will chose to be either YHWH's family (elect, under the promise of salvation from sin) or HIS eternal enemy, rejecting HIS promise of salvation from any sin and unable to save themselves from sin to become righteous. After this choice, all sinners are born as humans."
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 572#805572
If you make combinations of all possible scenarios you get as many as Christians beliefs as many people.
What confusing must be for a non-believer to see all this mess.
Would say : Now what? Which to choose?
Who is wrong and who is right?[/i]
-
KingandPriest
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Re: Question for Christians!
Post #27[Replying to post 1 by alexxcJRO]
Hello Alex,
I thank you for taking the time to pose such questions and challenge believers to give an account for why they believe according to (1 Pet 3:15). I want to stress that I or no man can prove or convince you that God exists. Heb 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.� I will attempt to answer your questions as directly as possible, but this will undoubtedly lead to more questions. I have separated your questions into two main sections. The first being more apologetic in nature, while the second set of “why� questions target aspects of faith and trust which cannot ever be fully logically explained because they do not have a basis in logic or reason.
Before I begin, I want to first lay a (hopefully) simple foundation which will help you develop an understanding, and I hope ignite a hunger for more understanding of God and His word. To understand the Bible, you have to at a minimum agree that it is a collection of writings meant to impact 3 aspects of mankind. These three aspects are the physical, the soul and the spirit. Even if you don’t believe in these yourself, an intelligent, honest and compassionate person must admit the writings are not meant to be understood on a physical or logical basis alone. Doing so is one of the great errors that many in the science community and “theist� impose on the Bible which is an unfair and unreasonable starting point. It would be as though I am asking a geologist to prove how a volcano can produce new land, but insist that they do so from a psychological perspective. Geology is the study and explanation of a segment physical matter (rock). As such the Bible describes physical, psychological (soul) and spiritual matters, while keeping track of a specific group of people in history, and carrying a central message. With that said, lets dive into your questions.
1. As stated above, one must approach the Bible with the understanding that the writings deal with physical reality, psychological issues and spiritual dilemmas.
2. This question is only difficult if the omnipotent being described lives within the vacuum of time. The God of the Bible is the creator of time and imposes His will throughout time. The Bible makes mention of God dealing with evil (Rev ch 18-20 gives us insight into how the problem of evil is resolved).
3. I actually love this question, because it is an opportunity to bring clarity to misconceptions about the Genesis account of creation. First, modern understanding of astronomy does not conflict with a biblical understanding of how things came to be. Genesis 1:3 states “And God said, “Let there be light,� and there was light.� We know light exists before a star is created, because when we look at the environment where stars are born, we see chemical reactions producing gases and light. Science tells us that stars form inside dense concentrations of interstellar gas. These regions are extremely cold and often dark, visible to us today by infrared as low mass stars, and then as visible light when the clouds dissipate and fusion occurs. If I were to take any person born before modern telescopes and show them a star being “birthed�, there account would sound similar to the account in Genesis. As to your question about geological science and the fossil record, I would challenge you to do some research on the disagreements between the long held dating of the earths layers to the carbon dating of those same layers. Often a layer that is supposed to be millions of years old, tests as only 30-50,000 years old. http://www.truthingenesis.com/2013/01/0 ... the-bible/
4. This is a very complex question. Too long to be answered in this chain. I will point your attention to: www.icr.org, http://www.icr.org/article/567/, http://www.icr.org/article/homo-naledi- ... ional-ape/, http://www.icr.org/article/8981/, http://www.icr.org/article/8199/
Fossils are found to agree and disagree with scientist’s description of human evolution.
5. It is widely held that the areas of Mesopotamia is considered the cradle of civilization. Outside of random fossils, and very small tribes, it is safe to say all of humanity dwelt in the region of South West Asia and North East Africa. Therefore a flood which covered this area would have flooded the whole “known� world at that time. Also, most of the Bible is from the perspective past events. You speak about fossils being recorded in unique locations. This does not disprove the biblical flood account, only adds to the mystery of the global migration which must have taken place. We see birds, bison, and elephants migrate across great distances. Along the way some die, and we find fossils scattered throughout the path of their migration. But if only two animals migrated, and both made a successful journey going and returning, one would expect to find no random fossil deposits.
6. Once again, this only further proves the validity of the Bible. The bible explains that our physical bodies were made of the same material (earth Gen1:24, Gen 2:7) as the animals of the Earth. With no ability to have genetics on their side, the authors of Genesis made a statement about our physical bodies, which they could have no means of knowing to be accurate. We are not made of gold, glass or water. When a person dies, there body decays and returns to Earth.
7. To believe that Jesus did not live, die and was resurrected is to reject not only biblical evidence but all historical records of the past 2 millennia. There are several historical accounts of Jesus performing miracles and documented writings of non-believers who attested to eye witness accounts. It is because of these historical writings, that prompted the writers of the Gospels to give an accurate account based on the time they spent with Jesus. It would be the same as rejecting the historical records on Caesar or Shakespeare because they were written after the life of the actual person. The attacks on the world trade center were roughly 15 years ago, would it be fair to say an interview and book written by someone who lived through it, is inaccurate and probably means it never really happened. If the only history that remains of the holocaust 1000 years from now, is Jewish survivors accounts, does it make it any less real. Check this website to see how a non-Christian detective used reasoning and his detective skills to prove the account of the gospels to be true: http://coldcasechristianity.com/
Before I move into the “why� questions, I want to reiterate that I have taken a deliberate attempt to use as little scripture as possible solely to reduce the argument of circular reasoning that many theist use. Reasoning and intuition are gifts given to us by God to be able to determine the truth and validity of something. Moving forward however, your questions on why will require a more direct approach because some of these questions can only be answered by the word of God. Once again affirm that the Bible speaks to physical, psychological and spiritual issues. Many of your questions deal more with the soul and spirit of man, which require direct answers and not opinions or reasoning. If I were to answer these questions based on my opinion, I would become the authority on that subject. (Ex, you go to a lawyer when you have a law question) When you have a question that deals with the soul (mind, emotions, will, personality) or the spirit (essence and core being) of man, you have to go to the authority, author or manufacturer of the thing/person.
Why questions
Let’s start with some points we have to agree on (even if only for the sake of this discussion). If God is truly God, should we be able to completely understand a supernatural, ever-existing, all powerful being. The answer is a resounding no. Even with things on earth, we see this often between a creator and created thing. Apple who is the author of apple products, does not relay to consumers of its products all trade secrets about how it runs its daily operations, or every component, software and other peripherals. Instead it provides an instruction manual, and encourages those with additional questions to return to Apple directly. The same is true of our Creator. The one true God who created all things is not easily comprehended, nor can be fit to abide by the laws of nature He created. When you use an Apple iPhone or iPod as a consumer, there are restrictions, but as a developer or an employee within the organization, you have more rights as to how you can use features, rework code or manage applications. In a similar sense, God who is the author and creator of all things, gives us a set of instructions for optimal physical performance as humans, social and psychological challenges, as well as our core spirit. If this doesn’t make sense, then the answers to your questions will not make sense, and make you more upset.
1. This question requires a deep understanding of spiritual things, but if you are willing to understand the Bible in its entirety it makes since why God chose a family to implement His plan of salvation. In short, God is perfect to a fault. What I mean by this is that He is so perfect, He will not break his own words or decree’s (Numbers 23:19). As both Lord (which means creator, author, owner, king) and God he will not ‘sin’ by breaking a law, system or order He has set in place. As such, when we are created, we come to live in a order that we did not choose, and in some cases we can’t see (Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth�, Hebrews 11:3 “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible�). One such law requires punishment in the form of death for sin (rebellion against the law/order of God). To fix the issue of sin in man, God had to basically become a man himself. Since God gave humans free will, this required cooperation from man. This is where Abraham comes in. As a reward for his cooperation to this plan, God tells him all of your decedents will be blessed.
2. Would it have been more efficient to select a larger group of people, yes. But God chose one of the smallest, if not smallest sect of civilization on purpose. Deut 7:7-8 explains that the national of Israel because of the covenant he made with Abraham back in Gen 17:1-8. The first 5 books of the bible are all a summary of the actual promise and the fulfilment of the promise through time. God gave us the freedom to choose whether or not we believe Him, serve Him and worship Him. He warns us of the consequence but still gives us the choice of life or death (Deut 30:19 “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live�). Back to efficiency, the question remains if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then I would have to believe His perspective on efficiency is greater than mine. If so, something that would appear logical based on my level of understanding and perspective can be wrong or incomplete. Choosing a larger sect of civilization could be inefficient because you have to train too many people. We see the nation of Israel had a population of about 2M during the exodus. This is where they received training of God’s laws to teach other people. They failed and were smaller in size than other populations. Looking back, how much more difficult would it have been to choose the Egyptians, Chinese or Indians?
3. See above
4. Lets go back to the example of Apple products. As a company Apple wants everyone to use their products. To do this they make their product available and advertise, but the CEO does not come to your home and violate your personal free will. Similarly, God gave you the will to choose Him. He makes you know He is there by leaving his signature (advertising) all over the place. Psalms 19:1 “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.� The more we investigate with science the more we see things are irreducibly complex and find intelligent design. Even the scientists at the LEC in CERN find this as they smash protons to discover the elemental building blocks of atoms. We once believed the atom was the smallest unit of matter, but now have learned that inside an atom are protons, electrons and neutrons. Inside of protons are gluons, bosons, mesons, leptons, and baryons. And inside these are quarks, antiquarks, positrons, and neutrinos. Every time science believes it is a step closer to proving that a random universe is possible, the more it proves that it was created. By ‘advertising’ in this way, God is not intruding on your free will, and gives you the opportunity to at a minimum ask yourself, who is the God that created this complex world right before my eyes. From there He promises over and over to reveal Himself Prov 8:17, Jeremiah 29:13, Isa 65:1.
5. Although this may not satisfy you initially, it is the most accurate I can give you in this soliloquy. Isa 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,� declares the Lord�.
6. Based on the context found within the text, one reason Sodom and Gomorrah was chosen was because of the concentration of that type of sin which was occurring. Gen 18:20 describes their sin as so great and so vast. Secondly, it is not accurate to imply that no other nation or peoples were not punished in a similar fashion. We know of Sodom and Gomorrah because God chose to reveal his plan to his friend Abraham. Gen 18:17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?�. This gives us an inclination that the only reason we know this people group which met destruction at the hand of God, was because he told Abraham. There are many records and stories of supernatural events taking place and wiping out a whole town, civilization, or people group. Is it possible that these were just as bad as Sodom and Gomorrah but the area didn’t have an Abraham like person who had a relationship with God to tell the rest of us about?
7. This question is similar to the one above, but in response to what we see in the world today, there is a difference in the type of judgement that is handed out. In Psa 81:12 God hands out judgement to people who know of Him differently. He hands them over to their own desires, which means he allows them to follow their own plans and feelings which will lead to their own destruction. Its just like a parent who warns a child not to touch a hot stove, or something dangerous. If the child continues to persist, sometimes a parent will let the child follow their own will (within reason) and allow the child to learn the error of their ways. Kids who get hurt when they jump off the bed, are just like adults who refuse to admit what they are doing is wrong. For those who openly reject him, and choose evil, they bring upon wrath and destruction upon their own heads.
8. I do not believe I follow your logic here. If Pharoah already decided not to let the Israelites go, God did not violate his free will. God took his decision and did not send him advisors to counsel him to change his mind. Kings and Pharaohs often sough the counsel of their wise men and prophets when a difficult decision was to be made. By hardening his heart, what we see is God refusing to send him another prophet outside of Moses. He would either listen to Moses or die. There are several accounts throughout the bible where God sends a Pharaoh, King, Judge or Leader of a people a prophet or wise man to reveal the will of God. When ever the king made up in his mind to reject God’s instruction, we find this “hardening of hearts� by means of lack of outside voice to help sway one’s mind. God will not violate your free will. If he tells Pharaoh let my people go or else, and Pharaoh says I don’t care, you cannot blame God for manipulating his free will.
9. Let us take a look at what the text actually states before we jump to conclusions. 2 Sam 6:6-7 “6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.� In order to serve as a priest who would carry the arc, they would have been trained according to the guidelines in Numbers 4:15. Here God gave a specific warning, promise or law that any unauthorized priest must not touch the holy things which were to be placed in the Holy of Holies. There is a great spiritual significance here which was to prove a point. Uzzah’s death was to make it clear that God meant what he said. Furthermore, Uzzah as the son of a priest would have known better than to place the arc of the covenant on a cart. It should have been carried by poles on the backs of men, not being pulled by oxen. Uzzah was struck down for treating God like any man and make compromises. This was his error. The root word we find in 2 Sam 6:6, listed above as irreverent act is the Hebrew word ‘shal� which means error, fault or negligence. No where do we see Uzzah being struck down for sin and never having a chance to repent. If a person makes a mistake when driving and dies, we don’t say that error is the reason they are going to heaven or hell. It is the choice to recognize God as God, repent from the sins we have committed against him, and seek Him with our whole heart.
10. Let’s separate the three components mentioned here: (i)intolerance, (ii)kill/murder, and (iii) directed by God.
i. Nearly every time God teaches the Israelites about himself in the desert after the exodus, He tells them not to worship another god. There is a reason this is the first of the widely known 10 commandments. No where in scripture will you find tolerance for worshiping other gods by God’s people. Even when an non-believer worships something, someone other than Him, it is a burden God bears for giving us the choice to choose Him. For God desires that all people be saved, 1 Tim 2:4.
ii. Instead of kill/murder I want to use the word destroy. For when a person kills another person they are destroying that person’s opportunity to continue to have life in a bodily sense. To answer your question, I pose the question is it ok for God to destroy evil? If the answer is yes, then God who truly knows what evil is, since it would be the opposite of everything He is, would be the best person to decide where, when and how that destruction should be handed out. When a government makes a set of laws in a country, it also gets to decide when, where and how to dole out punishment. When a person commits a series of crimes and is sentenced to life in prison, but another is sentenced to death, what makes the government ‘just’ in its actions. What makes God good is not the fact that He will do what we want, or that everything will be rainbows and butterflies. It is His perfect nature of justice and righteousness that makes him good and meets the criteria of Holy. Saying God is good is a weak method of describing God’s character. The holiness of God is comprised of His perfect love, perfect justice, perfect righteousness, perfect grace, perfect mercy, perfect rage, perfect power, perfect authority, perfect dominion, perfect compassion, perfect knowledge, perfect wisdom, perfect council and much more.
iii. Who would you want making the decision on how to deal with evil? Corrupt politicians, businessmen, we the people. No matter the choice, anyone other than God to decide on fairness, punishment, justice will result in an imperfect system.
11. As described above, God being good is not and cannot be based on our standard of good. If so, whose standard of good should we use. To you it may not be fair, that millions of people may never accept Christ. To another that is perfectly fine. To you murder may seem evil, but to a person in the military fighting ISIS, murder is the only option. Based on what scripture has revealed to us about God, He values justice and righteousness as the measuring stick for what is good and what is evil. You will always see God rewarding those who uphold justice and righteousness and being against those who act unjustly towards one another and has unrighteousness in their heart. I cannot with full conviction say that the above will answer your question, but I would implore you to seek the answer to this question for yourself. Seek God in prayer, spend some quiet time and listen for His voice to answer your question.
Hello Alex,
I thank you for taking the time to pose such questions and challenge believers to give an account for why they believe according to (1 Pet 3:15). I want to stress that I or no man can prove or convince you that God exists. Heb 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.� I will attempt to answer your questions as directly as possible, but this will undoubtedly lead to more questions. I have separated your questions into two main sections. The first being more apologetic in nature, while the second set of “why� questions target aspects of faith and trust which cannot ever be fully logically explained because they do not have a basis in logic or reason.
Before I begin, I want to first lay a (hopefully) simple foundation which will help you develop an understanding, and I hope ignite a hunger for more understanding of God and His word. To understand the Bible, you have to at a minimum agree that it is a collection of writings meant to impact 3 aspects of mankind. These three aspects are the physical, the soul and the spirit. Even if you don’t believe in these yourself, an intelligent, honest and compassionate person must admit the writings are not meant to be understood on a physical or logical basis alone. Doing so is one of the great errors that many in the science community and “theist� impose on the Bible which is an unfair and unreasonable starting point. It would be as though I am asking a geologist to prove how a volcano can produce new land, but insist that they do so from a psychological perspective. Geology is the study and explanation of a segment physical matter (rock). As such the Bible describes physical, psychological (soul) and spiritual matters, while keeping track of a specific group of people in history, and carrying a central message. With that said, lets dive into your questions.
1. As stated above, one must approach the Bible with the understanding that the writings deal with physical reality, psychological issues and spiritual dilemmas.
2. This question is only difficult if the omnipotent being described lives within the vacuum of time. The God of the Bible is the creator of time and imposes His will throughout time. The Bible makes mention of God dealing with evil (Rev ch 18-20 gives us insight into how the problem of evil is resolved).
3. I actually love this question, because it is an opportunity to bring clarity to misconceptions about the Genesis account of creation. First, modern understanding of astronomy does not conflict with a biblical understanding of how things came to be. Genesis 1:3 states “And God said, “Let there be light,� and there was light.� We know light exists before a star is created, because when we look at the environment where stars are born, we see chemical reactions producing gases and light. Science tells us that stars form inside dense concentrations of interstellar gas. These regions are extremely cold and often dark, visible to us today by infrared as low mass stars, and then as visible light when the clouds dissipate and fusion occurs. If I were to take any person born before modern telescopes and show them a star being “birthed�, there account would sound similar to the account in Genesis. As to your question about geological science and the fossil record, I would challenge you to do some research on the disagreements between the long held dating of the earths layers to the carbon dating of those same layers. Often a layer that is supposed to be millions of years old, tests as only 30-50,000 years old. http://www.truthingenesis.com/2013/01/0 ... the-bible/
4. This is a very complex question. Too long to be answered in this chain. I will point your attention to: www.icr.org, http://www.icr.org/article/567/, http://www.icr.org/article/homo-naledi- ... ional-ape/, http://www.icr.org/article/8981/, http://www.icr.org/article/8199/
Fossils are found to agree and disagree with scientist’s description of human evolution.
5. It is widely held that the areas of Mesopotamia is considered the cradle of civilization. Outside of random fossils, and very small tribes, it is safe to say all of humanity dwelt in the region of South West Asia and North East Africa. Therefore a flood which covered this area would have flooded the whole “known� world at that time. Also, most of the Bible is from the perspective past events. You speak about fossils being recorded in unique locations. This does not disprove the biblical flood account, only adds to the mystery of the global migration which must have taken place. We see birds, bison, and elephants migrate across great distances. Along the way some die, and we find fossils scattered throughout the path of their migration. But if only two animals migrated, and both made a successful journey going and returning, one would expect to find no random fossil deposits.
6. Once again, this only further proves the validity of the Bible. The bible explains that our physical bodies were made of the same material (earth Gen1:24, Gen 2:7) as the animals of the Earth. With no ability to have genetics on their side, the authors of Genesis made a statement about our physical bodies, which they could have no means of knowing to be accurate. We are not made of gold, glass or water. When a person dies, there body decays and returns to Earth.
7. To believe that Jesus did not live, die and was resurrected is to reject not only biblical evidence but all historical records of the past 2 millennia. There are several historical accounts of Jesus performing miracles and documented writings of non-believers who attested to eye witness accounts. It is because of these historical writings, that prompted the writers of the Gospels to give an accurate account based on the time they spent with Jesus. It would be the same as rejecting the historical records on Caesar or Shakespeare because they were written after the life of the actual person. The attacks on the world trade center were roughly 15 years ago, would it be fair to say an interview and book written by someone who lived through it, is inaccurate and probably means it never really happened. If the only history that remains of the holocaust 1000 years from now, is Jewish survivors accounts, does it make it any less real. Check this website to see how a non-Christian detective used reasoning and his detective skills to prove the account of the gospels to be true: http://coldcasechristianity.com/
Before I move into the “why� questions, I want to reiterate that I have taken a deliberate attempt to use as little scripture as possible solely to reduce the argument of circular reasoning that many theist use. Reasoning and intuition are gifts given to us by God to be able to determine the truth and validity of something. Moving forward however, your questions on why will require a more direct approach because some of these questions can only be answered by the word of God. Once again affirm that the Bible speaks to physical, psychological and spiritual issues. Many of your questions deal more with the soul and spirit of man, which require direct answers and not opinions or reasoning. If I were to answer these questions based on my opinion, I would become the authority on that subject. (Ex, you go to a lawyer when you have a law question) When you have a question that deals with the soul (mind, emotions, will, personality) or the spirit (essence and core being) of man, you have to go to the authority, author or manufacturer of the thing/person.
Why questions
Let’s start with some points we have to agree on (even if only for the sake of this discussion). If God is truly God, should we be able to completely understand a supernatural, ever-existing, all powerful being. The answer is a resounding no. Even with things on earth, we see this often between a creator and created thing. Apple who is the author of apple products, does not relay to consumers of its products all trade secrets about how it runs its daily operations, or every component, software and other peripherals. Instead it provides an instruction manual, and encourages those with additional questions to return to Apple directly. The same is true of our Creator. The one true God who created all things is not easily comprehended, nor can be fit to abide by the laws of nature He created. When you use an Apple iPhone or iPod as a consumer, there are restrictions, but as a developer or an employee within the organization, you have more rights as to how you can use features, rework code or manage applications. In a similar sense, God who is the author and creator of all things, gives us a set of instructions for optimal physical performance as humans, social and psychological challenges, as well as our core spirit. If this doesn’t make sense, then the answers to your questions will not make sense, and make you more upset.
1. This question requires a deep understanding of spiritual things, but if you are willing to understand the Bible in its entirety it makes since why God chose a family to implement His plan of salvation. In short, God is perfect to a fault. What I mean by this is that He is so perfect, He will not break his own words or decree’s (Numbers 23:19). As both Lord (which means creator, author, owner, king) and God he will not ‘sin’ by breaking a law, system or order He has set in place. As such, when we are created, we come to live in a order that we did not choose, and in some cases we can’t see (Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth�, Hebrews 11:3 “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible�). One such law requires punishment in the form of death for sin (rebellion against the law/order of God). To fix the issue of sin in man, God had to basically become a man himself. Since God gave humans free will, this required cooperation from man. This is where Abraham comes in. As a reward for his cooperation to this plan, God tells him all of your decedents will be blessed.
2. Would it have been more efficient to select a larger group of people, yes. But God chose one of the smallest, if not smallest sect of civilization on purpose. Deut 7:7-8 explains that the national of Israel because of the covenant he made with Abraham back in Gen 17:1-8. The first 5 books of the bible are all a summary of the actual promise and the fulfilment of the promise through time. God gave us the freedom to choose whether or not we believe Him, serve Him and worship Him. He warns us of the consequence but still gives us the choice of life or death (Deut 30:19 “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live�). Back to efficiency, the question remains if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then I would have to believe His perspective on efficiency is greater than mine. If so, something that would appear logical based on my level of understanding and perspective can be wrong or incomplete. Choosing a larger sect of civilization could be inefficient because you have to train too many people. We see the nation of Israel had a population of about 2M during the exodus. This is where they received training of God’s laws to teach other people. They failed and were smaller in size than other populations. Looking back, how much more difficult would it have been to choose the Egyptians, Chinese or Indians?
3. See above
4. Lets go back to the example of Apple products. As a company Apple wants everyone to use their products. To do this they make their product available and advertise, but the CEO does not come to your home and violate your personal free will. Similarly, God gave you the will to choose Him. He makes you know He is there by leaving his signature (advertising) all over the place. Psalms 19:1 “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.� The more we investigate with science the more we see things are irreducibly complex and find intelligent design. Even the scientists at the LEC in CERN find this as they smash protons to discover the elemental building blocks of atoms. We once believed the atom was the smallest unit of matter, but now have learned that inside an atom are protons, electrons and neutrons. Inside of protons are gluons, bosons, mesons, leptons, and baryons. And inside these are quarks, antiquarks, positrons, and neutrinos. Every time science believes it is a step closer to proving that a random universe is possible, the more it proves that it was created. By ‘advertising’ in this way, God is not intruding on your free will, and gives you the opportunity to at a minimum ask yourself, who is the God that created this complex world right before my eyes. From there He promises over and over to reveal Himself Prov 8:17, Jeremiah 29:13, Isa 65:1.
5. Although this may not satisfy you initially, it is the most accurate I can give you in this soliloquy. Isa 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,� declares the Lord�.
6. Based on the context found within the text, one reason Sodom and Gomorrah was chosen was because of the concentration of that type of sin which was occurring. Gen 18:20 describes their sin as so great and so vast. Secondly, it is not accurate to imply that no other nation or peoples were not punished in a similar fashion. We know of Sodom and Gomorrah because God chose to reveal his plan to his friend Abraham. Gen 18:17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?�. This gives us an inclination that the only reason we know this people group which met destruction at the hand of God, was because he told Abraham. There are many records and stories of supernatural events taking place and wiping out a whole town, civilization, or people group. Is it possible that these were just as bad as Sodom and Gomorrah but the area didn’t have an Abraham like person who had a relationship with God to tell the rest of us about?
7. This question is similar to the one above, but in response to what we see in the world today, there is a difference in the type of judgement that is handed out. In Psa 81:12 God hands out judgement to people who know of Him differently. He hands them over to their own desires, which means he allows them to follow their own plans and feelings which will lead to their own destruction. Its just like a parent who warns a child not to touch a hot stove, or something dangerous. If the child continues to persist, sometimes a parent will let the child follow their own will (within reason) and allow the child to learn the error of their ways. Kids who get hurt when they jump off the bed, are just like adults who refuse to admit what they are doing is wrong. For those who openly reject him, and choose evil, they bring upon wrath and destruction upon their own heads.
8. I do not believe I follow your logic here. If Pharoah already decided not to let the Israelites go, God did not violate his free will. God took his decision and did not send him advisors to counsel him to change his mind. Kings and Pharaohs often sough the counsel of their wise men and prophets when a difficult decision was to be made. By hardening his heart, what we see is God refusing to send him another prophet outside of Moses. He would either listen to Moses or die. There are several accounts throughout the bible where God sends a Pharaoh, King, Judge or Leader of a people a prophet or wise man to reveal the will of God. When ever the king made up in his mind to reject God’s instruction, we find this “hardening of hearts� by means of lack of outside voice to help sway one’s mind. God will not violate your free will. If he tells Pharaoh let my people go or else, and Pharaoh says I don’t care, you cannot blame God for manipulating his free will.
9. Let us take a look at what the text actually states before we jump to conclusions. 2 Sam 6:6-7 “6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.� In order to serve as a priest who would carry the arc, they would have been trained according to the guidelines in Numbers 4:15. Here God gave a specific warning, promise or law that any unauthorized priest must not touch the holy things which were to be placed in the Holy of Holies. There is a great spiritual significance here which was to prove a point. Uzzah’s death was to make it clear that God meant what he said. Furthermore, Uzzah as the son of a priest would have known better than to place the arc of the covenant on a cart. It should have been carried by poles on the backs of men, not being pulled by oxen. Uzzah was struck down for treating God like any man and make compromises. This was his error. The root word we find in 2 Sam 6:6, listed above as irreverent act is the Hebrew word ‘shal� which means error, fault or negligence. No where do we see Uzzah being struck down for sin and never having a chance to repent. If a person makes a mistake when driving and dies, we don’t say that error is the reason they are going to heaven or hell. It is the choice to recognize God as God, repent from the sins we have committed against him, and seek Him with our whole heart.
10. Let’s separate the three components mentioned here: (i)intolerance, (ii)kill/murder, and (iii) directed by God.
i. Nearly every time God teaches the Israelites about himself in the desert after the exodus, He tells them not to worship another god. There is a reason this is the first of the widely known 10 commandments. No where in scripture will you find tolerance for worshiping other gods by God’s people. Even when an non-believer worships something, someone other than Him, it is a burden God bears for giving us the choice to choose Him. For God desires that all people be saved, 1 Tim 2:4.
ii. Instead of kill/murder I want to use the word destroy. For when a person kills another person they are destroying that person’s opportunity to continue to have life in a bodily sense. To answer your question, I pose the question is it ok for God to destroy evil? If the answer is yes, then God who truly knows what evil is, since it would be the opposite of everything He is, would be the best person to decide where, when and how that destruction should be handed out. When a government makes a set of laws in a country, it also gets to decide when, where and how to dole out punishment. When a person commits a series of crimes and is sentenced to life in prison, but another is sentenced to death, what makes the government ‘just’ in its actions. What makes God good is not the fact that He will do what we want, or that everything will be rainbows and butterflies. It is His perfect nature of justice and righteousness that makes him good and meets the criteria of Holy. Saying God is good is a weak method of describing God’s character. The holiness of God is comprised of His perfect love, perfect justice, perfect righteousness, perfect grace, perfect mercy, perfect rage, perfect power, perfect authority, perfect dominion, perfect compassion, perfect knowledge, perfect wisdom, perfect council and much more.
iii. Who would you want making the decision on how to deal with evil? Corrupt politicians, businessmen, we the people. No matter the choice, anyone other than God to decide on fairness, punishment, justice will result in an imperfect system.
11. As described above, God being good is not and cannot be based on our standard of good. If so, whose standard of good should we use. To you it may not be fair, that millions of people may never accept Christ. To another that is perfectly fine. To you murder may seem evil, but to a person in the military fighting ISIS, murder is the only option. Based on what scripture has revealed to us about God, He values justice and righteousness as the measuring stick for what is good and what is evil. You will always see God rewarding those who uphold justice and righteousness and being against those who act unjustly towards one another and has unrighteousness in their heart. I cannot with full conviction say that the above will answer your question, but I would implore you to seek the answer to this question for yourself. Seek God in prayer, spend some quiet time and listen for His voice to answer your question.
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benchwarmer
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Re: Question for Christians!
Post #28alexxcJRO, lots of great stuff in this post, but I'm going to quibble with your conclusion above a little. We get natural light from other sources besides stars. For example: fire, lightning, and those funky fish with glow in the dark do-dads attached to their headalexxcJRO wrote: [Replying to post 15 by 1213]
"So are you saying that for example led lights can’t exist without stars? "
1. I am talking about natural light.
Light is a type of energy. It is a form of electromagnetic radiation of a wavelength which can be detected by the human eye. It is a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum and radiation given off by stars like the sun.
The day and night cycle, evening and morning cycle of our world, refers to the rising and setting of the Sun and Moon. This is a result of the rotation of the earth around its axis.
C: Therefore without stars we don't have natural light.
2. Many stars must be born and die for all the elements composed in the earth and the led emitting diodes to form (like Carbon, Oxygen, Iron, Gold, Germanium, Silicon, and so one).
We are all star dust.
Yes, all elements that make up the things that now produce natural light originally came from stars, but if you want to be completely pedantic you would have to say without hydrogen and helium we don't have natural light (since stars can't exist without hydrogen and helium).
Re: Question for Christians!
Post #29[Replying to post 9 by Peds nurse]
Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?
Are you saying, for example, that evil has existed before what they call the Big Bang?... because astrophysicists tell us that time began with the universe.
Do you have evidence that miracles have been demonstrated to be TRUE events?
Would you say that incredulity is evidence for the existence of anything?
Could there not be other satisfying explanations other than God? How do you account for all the people who believe that there are natural explanations for life?
I can.
When it rains, I don't think "God", I think "Nature".
When I think "oxygen", I don't think "God", I think "chemical element created in stars". Most oxygen is synthesized at the end of the helium fusion process in massive stars.
And when I think of massive stars, I don't think "God", I think ... nature. And when I don't have an answer to a question, I don't think "God", I think "I don't have an answer to a question".
That "not knowing" happens a lot to me.
Do you think it's a good idea to replace "not knowing" with "God"?
So, if I understand you correctly, your PERSPECTIVE dictates reality?
Alex wrote:The fact the problem of evil has not been resolved after hundreds of years adds to the improbability that a omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good god exist.
That's an interesting claim, Peds.Peds nurse wrote:Evil has been around since the beginning of time.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?
Are you saying, for example, that evil has existed before what they call the Big Bang?... because astrophysicists tell us that time began with the universe.
Are you saying that not having a disproof for God is actual PROOF for God?Peds nurse wrote:It does not disprove that God is not loving or lacks any other characteristic that makes Him God, all it proves is that humans have the capability to do evil.
Alex wrote:There is not one single miracle, or supernatural event being proven true.
We have only testimonies from people telling us they saw Ghosts, U.F.O's, the Yeti, the Lock Nest Monsters, the resurrection of Jesus.
You don't believe that we have testimonies of ghosts and UFOs and Yeti and the Loch Ness Monster and the resurrection of Jesus?Peds nurse wrote:I don't really believe this to be true.
Do you have evidence that miracles have been demonstrated to be TRUE events?
Are you saying that your perspective is proof for your beliefs?Peds nurse wrote:I believe it is a matter of perspective. I cannot look at the world and not see God.
Peds nurse wrote:Billions of unique cells create our body, all specific to their area, but all connect to make the whole of a person. Where would such a body, a unique life form come from if not from God?
Would you say that incredulity is evidence for the existence of anything?
Could there not be other satisfying explanations other than God? How do you account for all the people who believe that there are natural explanations for life?
You can't imagine that nature can account for natural processes?Peds nurse wrote:How could we have just the right oxygen, just the right carbon dioxide, just the right temperature to sustain life? I could go on and on, but you get my point.
I can.
When it rains, I don't think "God", I think "Nature".
When I think "oxygen", I don't think "God", I think "chemical element created in stars". Most oxygen is synthesized at the end of the helium fusion process in massive stars.
And when I think of massive stars, I don't think "God", I think ... nature. And when I don't have an answer to a question, I don't think "God", I think "I don't have an answer to a question".
That "not knowing" happens a lot to me.
Do you think it's a good idea to replace "not knowing" with "God"?
Interesting, Peds.Peds nurse wrote:Again, I believe this is perspective. The evidence that man gathers against creation, could be the very evidence that points in its favor.
So, if I understand you correctly, your PERSPECTIVE dictates reality?
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alexxcJRO
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Re: Question for Christians!
Post #30[Replying to post 27 by KingandPriest]
"This question is only difficult if the omnipotent being described lives within the vacuum of time. The God of the Bible is the creator of time and imposes His will throughout time."
The existence of God has not met its burden of proof yet, how do you know where does God exists if you can't even prove that he exists ?
By which mechanism do you determine where a God lives, exists?
"As to your question about geological science and the fossil record, I would challenge you to do some research on the disagreements between the long held dating of the earths layers to the carbon dating of those same layers. Often a layer that is supposed to be millions of years old, tests as only 30-50,000 years old"
But men there are many methods of dating, all are wrong? Seriously?
Uranium-Lead
10,000 - billion of years
Uranium-bearing minerals
Radioactive decay of uranium to lead via two separate decay chains
Uranium series
1,000 - 500,000 years
Uranium-bearing minerals, corals, shells, teeth, CaCO3
Radioactive decay of 234U to 230Th
Fission track
1,000 - billion of years
Uranium-bearing minerals and glasses
Measurement of damage tracks in glass and minerals from the radioactive decay of 238U
Luminescence (optically or thermally stimulated)
1,000 - 1,000,000 years
Quartz, feldspar, stone tools, pottery
Burial or heating age based on the accumulation of radiation-induced damage to electron sitting in mineral lattices
Electron Spin Resonance (ESR)
1,000 - 3,000,000 years
Uranium-bearing materials in which uranium has been absorbed from outside sources
Burial age based on abundance of radiation-induced paramagnetic centers in mineral lattices
Cosmogenic Nuclides
1,000 - 5,000,000 years
Typically quartz or olivine from volcanic or sedimentary rocks
Radioactive decay of cosmic-ray generated nuclides in surficial environments
Magnetostratigraphy 20,000 - billion of years
Sedimentary and volcanic rocks
Measurement of ancient polarity of the earth's magnetic field recorded in a stratigraphic succession
Tephrochronology
100 - billions of years
Volcanic ejecta
Uses chemistry and age of volcanic deposits to establish links between distant stratigraphic successions
Table 1. Comparison of commonly used dating methods.
The age of the earth was determined dating meteorite using Uranium-Lead method.
The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.05 billion years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%). This dating is based on evidence from radiometric age dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the radiometric ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples.
Following the development of radiometric age dating in the early 20th century, measurements of lead in uranium-rich minerals showed that some were in excess of a billion years old.[6] The oldest such minerals analyzed to date—small crystals of zircon from the Jack Hills of Western Australia—are at least 4.404 billion years old. Comparing the mass and luminosity of the Sun to those of other stars, it appears that the Solar System cannot be much older than those rocks. Calcium-aluminium-rich inclusions—the oldest known solid constituents within meteorites that are formed within the Solar System—are 4.567 billion years old,giving an age for the solar system and an upper limit for the age of Earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth
For example dating fossils:
1. KNM ER 3733 fossil was dated using magneto stratigraphy.
KNM ER 3733 is a fossilized hominid cranium of the extinct hominid Homo ergaster, which is interchangeably referred to as Homo erectus. It was discovered in 1975 in Koobi Fora, Kenya, right next to Lake Turkana, by Bernard Ngeneo, a field worker for Richard Leakey. Its geographic location is not to be confused with that of KNM WT 15000, Turkana Boy, also known as Nariokotome Boy, who was also found near Lake Turkana nine years later in 1984. KNM ER 3733 is one of the oldest Homo ergaster skulls in the world. Recent research using magneto stratigraphy has determined the age of KNM-ER 3733 to be about 1.6 million years old. KNM ER 3733 is a find of a near-complete cranium. Its brain size is about 850cc. KNM ER 3733 was compared to male fossils KNM ER 3833 and KNM WT 15000 (Turkana Boy), who were also found at the Koobi Fora site, and because of this, is said to be female. The features of KNM ER 3733 are less robust compared to the two male crania. It is considered an adult because of the extensive wear of its teeth, the fact that its third molars were present before the individual died, and because its cranial sutures were fully fused, which is only possible in adult specimen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KNM_ER_3733
2.Or The Hofmeyr Skull which was dated using combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods
The Hofmeyr Skull is a specimen of a 36,000 year old human skull that was found in 1952 near Hofmeyr, South Africa. It is one of a very few anatomically modern human skulls that have been discovered on the continent which have been dated to over 20,000 years old.
Analysis:
It was not possible to date the skull using traditional radiocarbon dating, as the carbon had leached out of the bone. Instead, a new method involving a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods was used. The method was developed by Richard Bailey of Oxford University. The earth material from the skull "filling the endocranial cavity" (central portion of the endocranial cavity) was dated using a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods, coupled through a radiation-field model. Based on the assumption that the earth in the skull is about the age of its inhumation and thus the same as the age of the skull, age was estimated to 36,200 ± 3,200 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmeyr_Skull
If these so called creationists "scientists" had really discovered that all the dating methods are somehow wrong, they would have received the Nobel prize by now.
Nobody in the scientific community takes them seriously, why would i ?
"We are not made of gold, glass or water."
Other fallacy.)
Over 96% of our body weight is a combination of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen. While it's not the main ingredient, gold can also be found knocking around inside our cells. An average 70 kilogram human contains 0.229 milligrams of gold. This would form a cube approximately 0.22 millimeters along each side.
http://www.gold-traders.co.uk/gold-info ... n-body.asp
"To believe that Jesus did not live, die and was resurrected is to reject not only biblical evidence but all historical records of the past 2 millennia.
read "Post 22"
"It is widely held that the areas of Mesopotamia is considered the cradle of civilization.Outside of random fossils, and very small tribes, it is safe to say all of humanity dwelt in the region of South West Asia and North East Africa. "
Other fallacy.
Pre-civilised "neolithic revolutions" also began independently in northwestern South America and Mesoamerica.
The earliest emergence of civilizations is generally associated with the final stages of the Neolithic Revolution, culminating in the relatively rapid process of urban revolution and state formation, a political development associated with the appearance of a governing elite. The earlier neolithic technology and lifestyle was established first in the Middle East (for example at Göbekli Tepe, from about 9,130 BCE), and later in the Yangtze and Yellow River basins in China (for example the Pengtoushan culture from 7,500 BCE), and later spread. Similar pre-civilised "neolithic revolutions" also began independently from 7,000 BCE in such places as northwestern South America (the Norte Chico civilization) and Mesoamerica. These were among the six civilizations worldwide that arose independently.Mesopotamia is the site of the earliest developments of the Neolithic Revolution from around 10,000 BCE, with civilisations developing from 6,500 years ago. This area has been identified as having "inspired some of the most important developments in human history including the invention of the wheel, the development of cursive script, mathematics, astronomy and agriculture."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_civilization
"The God of the Bible is the creator of time and imposes His will throughout time."
The existence of God has not met its burden of proof yet, how do you know God is the creator of time?
By which mechanism do you determine that he imposes his will throughout time?
I do not believe I follow your logic here. If Pharoah already decided not to let the Israelites go, God did not violate his free will.
see this http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=30651
"Let us take a look at what the text actually states before we jump to conclusions. 2 Sam 6:6-7 “6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.� "
see http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=30650
"Let’s separate the three components mentioned here: (i)intolerance, (ii)kill/murder, and (iii) directed by God.
To you murder may seem evil, but to a person in the military fighting ISIS, murder is the only option. "
see Post 25
God ordered the Israelites to murder other tribes of people. Including small children who are innocent, are not rational and do not have moral competence.
Murdering small children with impunity not matter how you put it is fucked up. And the fact that you are trying to justify murder says something about your moral compass which is all over the place. The Nord is not pointing Nord and South is not pointing South.
3. Mass Murder
“This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ “(1 Samuel 15:2-3)
4. God Promises More Killing
“I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.�(Ezekiel 35:7-9 )
5. Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites
“They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?� he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.� (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
6. More Murder Rape and Pillage
“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.�(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
7. More Rape and Baby Killing
“Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.�(Isaiah 13:15-18)
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"This question is only difficult if the omnipotent being described lives within the vacuum of time. The God of the Bible is the creator of time and imposes His will throughout time."
The existence of God has not met its burden of proof yet, how do you know where does God exists if you can't even prove that he exists ?
By which mechanism do you determine where a God lives, exists?
"As to your question about geological science and the fossil record, I would challenge you to do some research on the disagreements between the long held dating of the earths layers to the carbon dating of those same layers. Often a layer that is supposed to be millions of years old, tests as only 30-50,000 years old"
But men there are many methods of dating, all are wrong? Seriously?
Uranium-Lead
10,000 - billion of years
Uranium-bearing minerals
Radioactive decay of uranium to lead via two separate decay chains
Uranium series
1,000 - 500,000 years
Uranium-bearing minerals, corals, shells, teeth, CaCO3
Radioactive decay of 234U to 230Th
Fission track
1,000 - billion of years
Uranium-bearing minerals and glasses
Measurement of damage tracks in glass and minerals from the radioactive decay of 238U
Luminescence (optically or thermally stimulated)
1,000 - 1,000,000 years
Quartz, feldspar, stone tools, pottery
Burial or heating age based on the accumulation of radiation-induced damage to electron sitting in mineral lattices
Electron Spin Resonance (ESR)
1,000 - 3,000,000 years
Uranium-bearing materials in which uranium has been absorbed from outside sources
Burial age based on abundance of radiation-induced paramagnetic centers in mineral lattices
Cosmogenic Nuclides
1,000 - 5,000,000 years
Typically quartz or olivine from volcanic or sedimentary rocks
Radioactive decay of cosmic-ray generated nuclides in surficial environments
Magnetostratigraphy 20,000 - billion of years
Sedimentary and volcanic rocks
Measurement of ancient polarity of the earth's magnetic field recorded in a stratigraphic succession
Tephrochronology
100 - billions of years
Volcanic ejecta
Uses chemistry and age of volcanic deposits to establish links between distant stratigraphic successions
Table 1. Comparison of commonly used dating methods.
The age of the earth was determined dating meteorite using Uranium-Lead method.
The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.05 billion years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%). This dating is based on evidence from radiometric age dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the radiometric ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples.
Following the development of radiometric age dating in the early 20th century, measurements of lead in uranium-rich minerals showed that some were in excess of a billion years old.[6] The oldest such minerals analyzed to date—small crystals of zircon from the Jack Hills of Western Australia—are at least 4.404 billion years old. Comparing the mass and luminosity of the Sun to those of other stars, it appears that the Solar System cannot be much older than those rocks. Calcium-aluminium-rich inclusions—the oldest known solid constituents within meteorites that are formed within the Solar System—are 4.567 billion years old,giving an age for the solar system and an upper limit for the age of Earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth
For example dating fossils:
1. KNM ER 3733 fossil was dated using magneto stratigraphy.
KNM ER 3733 is a fossilized hominid cranium of the extinct hominid Homo ergaster, which is interchangeably referred to as Homo erectus. It was discovered in 1975 in Koobi Fora, Kenya, right next to Lake Turkana, by Bernard Ngeneo, a field worker for Richard Leakey. Its geographic location is not to be confused with that of KNM WT 15000, Turkana Boy, also known as Nariokotome Boy, who was also found near Lake Turkana nine years later in 1984. KNM ER 3733 is one of the oldest Homo ergaster skulls in the world. Recent research using magneto stratigraphy has determined the age of KNM-ER 3733 to be about 1.6 million years old. KNM ER 3733 is a find of a near-complete cranium. Its brain size is about 850cc. KNM ER 3733 was compared to male fossils KNM ER 3833 and KNM WT 15000 (Turkana Boy), who were also found at the Koobi Fora site, and because of this, is said to be female. The features of KNM ER 3733 are less robust compared to the two male crania. It is considered an adult because of the extensive wear of its teeth, the fact that its third molars were present before the individual died, and because its cranial sutures were fully fused, which is only possible in adult specimen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KNM_ER_3733
2.Or The Hofmeyr Skull which was dated using combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods
The Hofmeyr Skull is a specimen of a 36,000 year old human skull that was found in 1952 near Hofmeyr, South Africa. It is one of a very few anatomically modern human skulls that have been discovered on the continent which have been dated to over 20,000 years old.
Analysis:
It was not possible to date the skull using traditional radiocarbon dating, as the carbon had leached out of the bone. Instead, a new method involving a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods was used. The method was developed by Richard Bailey of Oxford University. The earth material from the skull "filling the endocranial cavity" (central portion of the endocranial cavity) was dated using a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods, coupled through a radiation-field model. Based on the assumption that the earth in the skull is about the age of its inhumation and thus the same as the age of the skull, age was estimated to 36,200 ± 3,200 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmeyr_Skull
If these so called creationists "scientists" had really discovered that all the dating methods are somehow wrong, they would have received the Nobel prize by now.
Nobody in the scientific community takes them seriously, why would i ?
"We are not made of gold, glass or water."
Other fallacy.
)Over 96% of our body weight is a combination of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen. While it's not the main ingredient, gold can also be found knocking around inside our cells. An average 70 kilogram human contains 0.229 milligrams of gold. This would form a cube approximately 0.22 millimeters along each side.
http://www.gold-traders.co.uk/gold-info ... n-body.asp
"To believe that Jesus did not live, die and was resurrected is to reject not only biblical evidence but all historical records of the past 2 millennia.
read "Post 22"
"It is widely held that the areas of Mesopotamia is considered the cradle of civilization.Outside of random fossils, and very small tribes, it is safe to say all of humanity dwelt in the region of South West Asia and North East Africa. "
Other fallacy.
Pre-civilised "neolithic revolutions" also began independently in northwestern South America and Mesoamerica.
The earliest emergence of civilizations is generally associated with the final stages of the Neolithic Revolution, culminating in the relatively rapid process of urban revolution and state formation, a political development associated with the appearance of a governing elite. The earlier neolithic technology and lifestyle was established first in the Middle East (for example at Göbekli Tepe, from about 9,130 BCE), and later in the Yangtze and Yellow River basins in China (for example the Pengtoushan culture from 7,500 BCE), and later spread. Similar pre-civilised "neolithic revolutions" also began independently from 7,000 BCE in such places as northwestern South America (the Norte Chico civilization) and Mesoamerica. These were among the six civilizations worldwide that arose independently.Mesopotamia is the site of the earliest developments of the Neolithic Revolution from around 10,000 BCE, with civilisations developing from 6,500 years ago. This area has been identified as having "inspired some of the most important developments in human history including the invention of the wheel, the development of cursive script, mathematics, astronomy and agriculture."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_civilization
"The God of the Bible is the creator of time and imposes His will throughout time."
The existence of God has not met its burden of proof yet, how do you know God is the creator of time?
By which mechanism do you determine that he imposes his will throughout time?
I do not believe I follow your logic here. If Pharoah already decided not to let the Israelites go, God did not violate his free will.
see this http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=30651
"Let us take a look at what the text actually states before we jump to conclusions. 2 Sam 6:6-7 “6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.� "
see http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=30650
"Let’s separate the three components mentioned here: (i)intolerance, (ii)kill/murder, and (iii) directed by God.
To you murder may seem evil, but to a person in the military fighting ISIS, murder is the only option. "
see Post 25
God ordered the Israelites to murder other tribes of people. Including small children who are innocent, are not rational and do not have moral competence.
Murdering small children with impunity not matter how you put it is fucked up. And the fact that you are trying to justify murder says something about your moral compass which is all over the place. The Nord is not pointing Nord and South is not pointing South.
3. Mass Murder
“This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ “(1 Samuel 15:2-3)
4. God Promises More Killing
“I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.�(Ezekiel 35:7-9 )
5. Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites
“They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?� he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.� (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
6. More Murder Rape and Pillage
“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.�(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
7. More Rape and Baby Killing
“Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.�(Isaiah 13:15-18)
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