Smokers need not apply...

[Elijah John]

(Luke 5.31)

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 97 by 2timothy316]

No, I not refuting it. I'm just saying the whole matter needs more research. Too much hype, not enough research. Anyhow, I find we are getting a bit off track. The OP was about the Watchtower policy of dumping smokers. As far as I am concerned, that's their business. It's their exclusive club and they can decide who's in or out. For me, what they have to say has no clout whatsoever. Three strikes and you are out. I am a Trinitarian, an intellectual, and a smoker. I struck out big time three times with them, and they with me. And that's OK by me. I am happy elsewhere. The Watchtower Society may have real meaning for persons feeing very marginalized and disenfranchised. But for me, it's too disconnected from mainstream Christendom, like a planet floating way out there in a funny orbit.

[otseng]

[Replying to post 83 by theStudent]

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[onewithhim]

Peace to you OWH.

Thank you for quoting the whole post, which I think you are doing out of consideration for me. In this case, I know how long these posts are, and I am sure it is fine to just carry on the conversation. I apologize if I made you feel like you had to do so with all posts ever. That is my fault. I have not done it because these posts are so long.

[Replying to post 91 by onewithhim]

And Jesus made people PHYSICALLY well. Why do you suppose he did that?

To ease their suffering because He had compassion upon them. Because they asked. Because He COULD. To bring and give glory to God.


Note, though, that He did not tell them to go and make themselves clean, and then come back to Him when they were more acceptable.

You didn't answer my question. If you think you and all other believers are headed for heaven, and therefore I assume you believe that Adam and Eve were also.....then at what point would they have gone to heaven (if they hadn't rebelled)?

I apologize. I thought I had addressed that.

The garden of Eden is in the spiritual realm. The serpent was the Adversary (as you know). The Tree of Life was CHRIST (I am the LIFE).

Adam and Eve had a body that had no sin and death in it and they were already IN the place that WE will enter into (with the new body - the white robe); the Kingdom that will also be upon the earth. We have the bodies right now that Adam and Eve had after they ate from the tree of knowing good (life) AND bad (death).

(the long garment of skin with sin and death in it).

And as you know, this flesh and its blood cannot enter the spiritual realm. But the new body (the spirit body, the white robe, with ITS blood - holy spirit) CAN, just as Christ did.


After being taken up for the WEDDING, the Bride (the New Jerusalem) comes down OUT of heaven, and the Kingdom is upon the earth (at which time the thousand year reign beings, the separation of the sheep and goats occurs, and the sheep are invited into the Kingdom and to the wedding FEAST - which always comes after the wedding itself).





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I'm sorry, I'm not following you. I've never heard that before, that Adam and Eve were originally created with spirit bodies, and they were given physical bodies AFTER they sinned. Is that what you're saying? Sometimes it takes a while for me to understand something.

If so, (1) how could the Garden of Eden have been a spiritual place when there were animals there? (2) How do we understand Adam being created from the dust of the ground, if he was created as a spirit person? (3) And you still didn't answer the question: If Adam and Eve had not sinned, at what point would they have been united with the spirit realm where God lives?

[onewithhim]

I look forward to tam's response to my last post, and I have a question for hoghead. Were you once a baptized Jehovah's Witness?

[tam]

I'm sorry, I'm not following you. I've never heard that before, that Adam and Eve were originally created with spirit bodies,

We ARE spirit. The person that we TRULY are - the spirit of a person - is hidden within these 'clay' vessels: this long garment of skin, that was given to Adam and Eve to cover up. INSIDE that long garment of skin (the clay vessel) is who we TRULY are.

and they were given physical bodies AFTER they sinned. Is that what you're saying? Sometimes it takes a while for me to understand something.

I think the misunderstanding comes in thinking that the spirit body is just some ethereal floatie thing.

But it is still a body; just a different kind of body. And angels, who have spirit bodies, can manifest flesh (without sin or death) in this world. Christ also, in the new body, could move between walls, appear and disappear; ascended into heaven; ate food; could be touched; etc.

If so, (1) how could the Garden of Eden have been a spiritual place when there were animals there?

Animals are spirit also. Regardless, they were brought into the Garden to be named, but I don't see where they continued to live in the garden.

(2) How do we understand Adam being created from the dust of the ground, if he was created as a spirit person?

He was created outside the garden... and then brought into the garden. He could move in between both realms (as the angels can do also - remember that we will be like the angels - as Adam was, with the exception of immortality, something he would have needed to eat from the tree of LIFE to receive)

God doesn't "walk around" on the earth; but He did "walk around" in the garden.

The serpent was there - the Adversary, who is a spirit being, a seraph/dragon/serpent - and so was Christ (the Tree of Life).

(3) And you still didn't answer the question: If Adam and Eve had not sinned, at what point would they have been united with the spirit realm where God lives?

I thought I did. If they were already in the spirit realm, then they would not have needed to be united with the spirit realm where God lives, right? Because they were already there. They had eternal life to GAIN (eating from the tree of LIFE) had they NOT chosen to eat from that other tree instead.

The only thing that could have happened to change their status (for the worse) was sinning (and not repenting or showing love so as to be forgiven) and so being cast out.



So bringing this back around to the actual topic... THIS body with sin and death in it (the long garment of skin given to Adam and Eve) will be discarded. In its place we receive the NEW BODY (the white robe - that has LIFE in it, ETERNAL life).


The BODY that is the TEMPLE - is the BODY of CHRIST (of which we are part, if indeed we are part of His Body/Bride/Church).

Not that this means there is no wisdom in taking care of this physical body - to save us pain and unnecessary illness - but keep that in perspective; and don't use the physical body as a means to exclude or make it harder for others to come to Christ, who are trying to come to Christ.



Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

I'm sorry, I'm not following you. I've never heard that before, that Adam and Eve were originally created with spirit bodies,

We ARE spirit. The person that we TRULY are - the spirit of a person - is hidden within these 'clay' vessels: this long garment of skin, that was given to Adam and Eve to cover up. INSIDE that long garment of skin (the clay vessel) is who we TRULY are.

and they were given physical bodies AFTER they sinned. Is that what you're saying? Sometimes it takes a while for me to understand something.

I think the misunderstanding comes in thinking that the spirit body is just some ethereal floatie thing.

But it is still a body; just a different kind of body. And angels, who have spirit bodies, can manifest flesh (without sin or death) in this world. Christ also, in the new body, could move between walls, appear and disappear; ascended into heaven; ate food; could be touched; etc.

If so, (1) how could the Garden of Eden have been a spiritual place when there were animals there?

Animals are spirit also. Regardless, they were brought into the Garden to be named, but I don't see where they continued to live in the garden.

(2) How do we understand Adam being created from the dust of the ground, if he was created as a spirit person?

He was created outside the garden... and then brought into the garden. He could move in between both realms (as the angels can do also - remember that we will be like the angels - as Adam was, with the exception of immortality, something he would have needed to eat from the tree of LIFE to receive)

God doesn't "walk around" on the earth; but He did "walk around" in the garden.

The serpent was there - the Adversary, who is a spirit being, a seraph/dragon/serpent - and so was Christ (the Tree of Life).

(3) And you still didn't answer the question: If Adam and Eve had not sinned, at what point would they have been united with the spirit realm where God lives?

I thought I did. If they were already in the spirit realm, then they would not have needed to be united with the spirit realm where God lives, right? Because they were already there. They had eternal life to GAIN (eating from the tree of LIFE) had they NOT chosen to eat from that other tree instead.

The only thing that could have happened to change their status (for the worse) was sinning (and not repenting or showing love so as to be forgiven) and so being cast out.



So bringing this back around to the actual topic... THIS body with sin and death in it (the long garment of skin given to Adam and Eve) will be discarded. In its place we receive the NEW BODY (the white robe - that has LIFE in it, ETERNAL life).


The BODY that is the TEMPLE - is the BODY of CHRIST (of which we are part, if indeed we are part of His Body/Bride/Church).

Not that this means there is no wisdom in taking care of this physical body - to save us pain and unnecessary illness - but keep that in perspective; and don't use the physical body as a means to exclude or make it harder for others to come to Christ, who are trying to come to Christ.



Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Forgive my bluntness, but this is one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard. Even when I was a Baptist I never heard of this. We are not physical beings, we are spirit beings? Why would God create a physical earth and physical people (which we are, I think everyone will agree) if we are all really supposed to be with Him as spirit persons? Why not just make us spirit people like He did the angels?

[tam]

[Replying to post 105 by onewithhim]

Forgive my bluntness, but this is one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard. Even when I was a Baptist I never heard of this. We are not physical beings, we are spirit beings?

Perhaps I am not explaining it well. I think a Baptist might understand it (better) were I to replace the word 'spirit' with the word 'soul'.


**

WE are treasures in clay vessels (as Paul described). Wearing the long garment of skin (which many have assumed is an animal skin) given to Adam and Eve; but soon to put that off and to put on the white robe.

Both are bodies that are described as articles of clothing. (the long garment of skin verses the white robe)


We have the body we inherited from Adam AFTER the fall: this flesh and blood with sin and death in it.

We WILL have the body we can inherit from the "last" Adam: the spirit body that is capable of moving in and out of the spiritual realm ((Just like the angels can do, and Christ did say that we would be like the angels; and just like CHRIST did after He was resurrected. His new body was able to move between walls; appear and disappear, ascend to heaven, yet also eat and be touched.)




I am beginning to see that some are wrapped up (sorry, bad pun, lol) in this flesh being all that there is to a person. But there is more to us than our physical body; and I think that is a pretty common understanding. Common doesn't make something true, but Christ also differentiated between the body and the 'soul'. I know the nwt translates soul as life in this instance, but that is still a differentiation from the body.



So... don't worry about the body so much, especially to the point of making it harder for those who wish to, to come to Christ. The flesh counts for nothing.



And I think that once again brings this back around to the topic at hand ; )



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 105 by onewithhim]

Forgive my bluntness, but this is one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard. Even when I was a Baptist I never heard of this. We are not physical beings, we are spirit beings?

Perhaps I am not explaining it well. I think a Baptist might understand it (better) were I to replace the word 'spirit' with the word 'soul'.


**

WE are treasures in clay vessels (as Paul described). Wearing the long garment of skin (which many have assumed is an animal skin) given to Adam and Eve; but soon to put that off and to put on the white robe.

Both are bodies that are described as articles of clothing. (the long garment of skin verses the white robe)


We have the body we inherited from Adam AFTER the fall: this flesh and blood with sin and death in it.

We WILL have the body we can inherit from the "last" Adam: the spirit body that is capable of moving in and out of the spiritual realm ((Just like the angels can do, and Christ did say that we would be like the angels; and just like CHRIST did after He was resurrected. His new body was able to move between walls; appear and disappear, ascend to heaven, yet also eat and be touched.)




I am beginning to see that some are wrapped up (sorry, bad pun, lol) in this flesh being all that there is to a person. But there is more to us than our physical body; and I think that is a pretty common understanding. Common doesn't make something true, but Christ also differentiated between the body and the 'soul'. I know the nwt translates soul as life in this instance, but that is still a differentiation from the body.



So... don't worry about the body so much, especially to the point of making it harder for those who wish to, to come to Christ. The flesh counts for nothing.



And I think that once again brings this back around to the topic at hand ; )



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You didn't answer my question. My question was: Why would God create a physical planet to put people on if we were always intended to live with Him in the spirit realm? Why not create us just like He created the angels---in spirit bodies?

Also, "spirit" and "soul" are not interchangeable. They are completely different things. This has been previously discussed at great length on other threads.

[tam]

[Replying to post 107 by onewithhim]

I know that spirit and soul are often described as two different things (and often ARE two different things).

I used it as an illustration only. Because I'm not sure why you think it is so bizarre for someone to say that we are spirit within this vessel. Our person, who we truly are, the heart of us, our emotions, our nature, our personality, everything that makes us, US.

This is contained with the spirit of us; not the flesh.

Do you think that we are just our bodies and nothing more than that?



I know at least part of the answer to the other question that you asked, but I don't think I am able discuss that at this time. Plus, it does not change anything as to the points made in this discussion re: smokers being told that they cannot belong to Christ until after they quit smoking.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 107 by onewithhim]

I know that spirit and soul are often described as two different things (and often ARE two different things).

I used it as an illustration only. Because I'm not sure why you think it is so bizarre for someone to say that we are spirit within this vessel. Our person, who we truly are, the heart of us, our emotions, our nature, our personality, everything that makes us, US.

This is contained with the spirit of us; not the flesh.

Do you think that we are just our bodies and nothing more than that?



I know at least part of the answer to the other question that you asked, but I don't think I am able discuss that at this time. Plus, it does not change anything as to the points made in this discussion re: smokers being told that they cannot belong to Christ until after they quit smoking.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You made statements as to the substance of your belief that humans were created originally as spirit persons and became physical only after they sinned. The subject is already out there, presented by you. Now I'm asking, why would God create a physical planet to place spirit people on? Why not create them as spirit beings like the angels in the first place? This is central to your beliefs. Can you answer it?