Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[For_The_Kingdom]

Yes, Jesus was a man. So technically your not wrong.

So, are you refusing to acknowledge Charles Taze Russell in that regard, and would rather throw Jesus under the bus (falsely)?

Did you know that the Catholics, Lutherans, Baptist. Jews and many others have failed to determine the coming of Jesus? Show me a religion that hasn't failed at some prediction. At least Witnesses don't hold on to things like Christmas, the trinity, hellfire and an eternal soul. All of which have been proven false in the Bible.

Well, when someone creates a thread about Evangelicals vs Catholics/Lutherans/Baptists, I will gladly bring it up.

I am not a member of EITHER one of those Churches/groups...so it really doesn't matter to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d ... tic_events
3. A religion that has had its fair share of accusations of sexual abuse among members.Show me a religion that is immune to some member doing some kind of horrible act. We don't condone such things and we follow the laws of the country we are in concerning such matters.
4. A religion that has brain washed its members to believe that blood transfusions are unBiblical, which lead to the death of many members who refused blood transfusions.Brainwashing is not a scientific fact. It has never been proven so it doesn't exist.

Acts 15:29 says, "Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." We follow this. Why do you hate us for following this?
5. A religion that teaches that their way is the truth instead of "Jesus is the Truth".

Point? Whoever makes a prophecy which doesn't come true is a false prophet. Plain and simple. Your denomination of Christianity made false prophecies, all the way until until 1975...therefore, they (WTS) are a false prophet, as an organization.

And anyone else, whether as an individual or as an organization, who've made prophecies that did NOT come to past, are FALSE PROPHETS.

The Bible is truth. Or do you not agree with 1 Timothy 3:16,17?

Sure do. I also agree with Jesus when he said I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6).

Do you see that? Did he say "No one comes to the Father unless he is a Jehovah's Witness? No.

Did he say "No one comes to he Father unless he is a member of a man-made organization known as the Watch Tower & Tract Society". No.

Case closed.

[For_The_Kingdom]

You have been challenging JWs to answer your stuff with "x,y & z" and they haven't been able to answer you....is that what you're saying? Far from the truth! You have been getting answers to everything you bring up. At least be THAT honest.

I want YOU to answer this direct question: Can a person that is living today receive eternal salvation from God if this person is NOT a Jehovah's Witness or has any affiliation with the Watch Tower and Tract Society?

Yes or no.

[onewithhim]

Answering post #369 by For_the_Kingdom:

You can close all the cases you want.....you would still be in error. It's useless discussing anything with you because you either don't bother to read a person's post, or you completely ignore it.

I commented on exactly why the WTS cannot be considered "prophets," yet you ignored that. No comment from you on reasoning about that.

A prophet is someone directly communicated to by God Almighty. The WTS does not claim to be directly instructed from God. They pray to Jehovah and then search the Scriptures for an answer. Sometimes in the past they have not fully understood the Scripture that applied to their issue. This doesn't make them false "prophets."

1) They are not prophets.
2) They only tell people what is ALREADY said in the Bible, and to their merit they see where they may have erred and admit it, continue to seek direction from the Scriptures, and try to understand where they went wrong.
3) This is admirable, and unparalleled by any other religion.

[onewithhim]

You have been challenging JWs to answer your stuff with "x,y & z" and they haven't been able to answer you....is that what you're saying? Far from the truth! You have been getting answers to everything you bring up. At least be THAT honest.

I want YOU to answer this direct question: Can a person that is living today receive eternal salvation from God if this person is NOT a Jehovah's Witness or has any affiliation with the Watch Tower and Tract Society?

Yes or no.

Yes.

And this was explained many posts ago.

[2timothy316]

Yes, Jesus was a man. So technically your not wrong.

So, are you refusing to acknowledge Charles Taze Russell in that regard, and would rather throw Jesus under the bus (falsely)?

Brother Russell was a only a person. He was simply a faithful man to Jehovah God who wanted to find what the truth was. Jehovah blessed his efforts.That's it in a nutshell.

We don't believe Russell started our religion. Jehovah through His Son Jesus started the Christian religion in the first century. What we see today is not all Russell either. There were others that broke free of the current day doctrines, not just Russell. Russell and many others were set on rediscovering what the Bible taught not creating something new. They worked together. It was not all from one man. Which I'm sure you're not going to believe me since I know you think we speak in 'subliminal messages'. But at this point my replies are not to you, but to others that might read your posts and give them what we really believe as JWs.

[2timothy316]

Point? Whoever makes a prophecy which doesn't come true is a false prophet. Plain and simple. Your denomination of Christianity made false prophecies, all the way until until 1975...therefore, they (WTS) are a false prophet, as an organization.

My fellow brothers and sisters were over zealous in trying to 'keeping in expectation' of the end and humbly accepted that they were in error for trying. (Habakkuk 2:3) I forgave them for their error and moved on.

What is your excuse for teaching the trinity, hell, or everyone has an eternal soul? These are false prophecies. Why do you teach them? Even after you have been shown in the Bible. Rather you just just keep teaching what is wrong. To me that is what is really unacceptable. However, if you were to stop teaching false teachings contrary to the Bible then I would forgive you as well.

[tigger2]

Answering post #369 by For_the_Kingdom:

You can close all the cases you want.....you would still be in error. It's useless discussing anything with you because you either don't bother to read a person's post, or you completely ignore it.

I commented on exactly why the WTS cannot be considered "prophets," yet you ignored that. No comment from you on reasoning about that.

A prophet is someone directly communicated to by God Almighty. The WTS does not claim to be directly instructed from God. They pray to Jehovah and then search the Scriptures for an answer. Sometimes in the past they have not fully understood the Scripture that applied to their issue. This doesn't make them false "prophets."

1) They are not prophets.
2) They only tell people what is ALREADY said in the Bible, and to their merit they see where they may have erred and admit it, continue to seek direction from the Scriptures, and try to understand where they went wrong.
3) This is admirable, and unparalleled by any other religion.

Richard Lattimore, the eminent translator (NY Times Book Review) and one of the most distinguished living translators of Greek writes in notes for 1 Cor. 11:4 and 14:1 -

prophesies. This is not here introduced as if it were an activity requiring extraordinary gifts, and presumably may mean nothing more than reading, quoting, or interpreting Scripture. See also 14:1 ff. - Acts and Letters of the Apostles, p. 281, Dorset Press, 1982.

Well, what does the Watchtower Society call those people in the Bible who received messages directly from God? They, too, are described as being prophets, or, more clearly, as being inspired prophets.

Does the Watchtower Society claim to be an inspired prophet, receiving information directly (and therefore perfectly) from God?

The Watchtower has said:

We have not the gift of prophecy. - January 1883, page 425.

Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible. - WT, December 15, 1896, page 306.

[the fact that some have Jehovah's spirit] does not mean those now serving as Jehovah's witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine, The Watchtower, are inspired and infallible and without mistakes. - WT, May 15, 1947, page 157.

"The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic. - WT, August 15, 1950, page 263.

The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18) - WT, February 15, 1981, page 19.

As the preface to every Watchtower magazine for the year 1972 said, "No, The Watchtower is NO INSPIRED PROPHET, but it follows and explains a Book of prophecy ...." Which Book? The Sacred Bible of the Holy Scriptures, written by inspiration in the name of the creator of heaven and earth, the only living and true God."

C. T. Russell wrote in an October 1, 1907 WT article):

A dear Brother inquires, Can we feel absolutely sure that the Chronology set forth in the Dawn-Studies is correct? - That the harvest began in 1874 and will end in A.D. 1914....?

We answer, Russell continues, as we have frequently done before in the Dawns and Towers and orally and by letter, that we have never claimed that they were knowledge, nor based upon indisputable evidence, facts, knowledge; our claim has always been that they are based on faith. We have set forth the evidence as plainly as possible and stated the conclusions of faith we draw from them....

Many have examined these evidences and have accepted them; others equally bright do not endorse them....

We neither urge nor insist upon our views as infallible, nor do we smite or abuse those who disagree; but regard as brethren all sanctified believers in the precious blood.

On the contrary, it is those who differ who smite us and speak evil of us .... They are our critics who always claim the infallibility. We go humbly onward following the Apostles example and words, We believe and therefore speak, whether others hear or forbear to hear. Is not this in accord with the Spirit of Christ? ....

But some of those who come to a trifling point on which they disagree seem to imagine that the entire harvest work must be overthrown, or at least stopped, until they get their little jot or tittle satisfactorily adjusted. ....

If, therefore, dearly beloved, it should turn that our chronology is all wrong, we may conclude that with it we have had much advantage everyway. If the attainment of our glorious hopes and present joys in the Lord should cost us such disappointment as our friends fear, we should rejoice and count it cheap!

[2timothy316]

We neither urge nor insist upon our views as infallible, nor do we smite or abuse those who disagree; but regard as brethren all sanctified believers in the precious blood.

On the contrary, it is those who differ who smite us and speak evil of us .... They are our critics who always claim the infallibility."

That quote is going into the mind palace and Tigger you're getting some coins!

So true! It is not Witnesses that claim they are infallible, it is those that speak harshly against us that claim that Witnesses proclaim themselves infallible. Only God's Word is infallible. Which in turn takes a fallible people a lot more time to understand an infallible message. We also seek not to abuse people that disagree, but wow our detractors sure do lash us with their condemning words. I can't count how many times I have been told I'm going to hell.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Answering post #369 by For_the_Kingdom:

You can close all the cases you want.....you would still be in error. It's useless discussing anything with you because you either don't bother to read a person's post, or you completely ignore it.

How am I not reading/ignoring a person's post when I am quoting what the person said and responding directly to it?

I commented on exactly why the WTS cannot be considered "prophets," yet you ignored that. No comment from you on reasoning about that.

Um, I believe I did.

A prophet is someone directly communicated to by God Almighty.

Thats the point, Charles Taze Russell was NOT directly communicated by God...so he had no BUSINESS whatsoever making prophecies about anything. Charles Russell is rightfully called a false prophet, because he made prophecies that simply did not come to past.

The WTS does not claim to be directly instructed from God.

Sure, but you guys claim to be God's organization, his faithful and discreet slave...the visible governing body of God on Earth. You guys claim to be and to HAVE the TRUTH. You guys claim to be able to understand the Bible, and a person cannot understand the Bible without assistance from the WTS (their word's, not mine).

You guys make all of these radical claims, just to admit that you aren't directly instructed by God...and you practically admit that they were wrong about those prophecies.

Yet, you guys are the truth, and the only truth on Earth?

They pray to Jehovah and then search the Scriptures for an answer. Sometimes in the past they have not fully understood the Scripture that applied to their issue. This doesn't make them false "prophets."

So, you say "sometimes in the past they have not fully understood the Scripture that applied to their issue"

Hmm..lets see..

"Yes, besides having God's spirit of illumination, a Christian needs Jehovah's theocratic organization in order to understand the Bible. (The Watchtower; 6/15-1951; pp. 375)

So, according to the excerpt from that article, we can't understand the Bible without help from the WTS. Yet, you just admitted that "sometimes they didn't fully understand the Scriptures".

Hmmm. Sounds like the blind leading the blind, eh?

1) They are not prophets.

Non-prophets shouldn't be making Biblical prophecies, should they?

2) They only tell people what is ALREADY said in the Bible

Nonsense. I was told some spiel about a "second chance after you die"...and I was told this despite it NOT being in the Bible.

and to their merit they see where they may have erred and admit it

Then you (JWs) shouldn't be going around saying you are the truth (your organization), if the history of the organization has been plagued with prophecies that didn't come to past and also doctrine flip-flops over time. How is that the "truth"?

continue to seek direction from the Scriptures

Jehovah's Witnesses don't seek direction from the Scriptures, they seek them from Watchtower magazines. Sad and unfortunate truth.

and try to understand where they went wrong.

Do JW's try to understand where the Watchtower went wrong? Or you just believe everything that they tell you?

3) This is admirable, and unparalleled by any other religion.

More boastful "we are better than everyone else" talk.

SMH.

[For_The_Kingdom]

My fellow brothers and sisters were over zealous in trying to 'keeping in expectation' of the end and humbly accepted that they were in error for trying. (Habakkuk 2:3) I forgave them for their error and moved on.

I give you props for admitting that. Much props.

What is your excuse for teaching the trinity

Because Trinitarians believe that we have a Biblical basis for believing such. And apparently the WTS also know that we have this, because if they didn't, they wouldn't have gone through so much trouble of robbing the Bible (their NWT) of all of the "Trinity proof" texts.

Literally dozens of alterations, omissions, and downright deceptive renderings of most "Trinity proof" Scriptures. And there is more and more with every new edition of the NWT.

hell

Sure, hell doesn't exist and is a false Biblical teaching...yet, Jesus went out of his way to tell a story about a man who died and went to hell (Luke 16:19-31).

Makes no sense.

or everyone has an eternal soul?

Biblical teaching.

These are false prophecies. Why do you teach them?

We can discuss each one of them if you like. But first, I am still not quite done with the arrogant "we are the only way" stuff coming from WTS. I'd like to focus on the falsehood of that, first.

Even after you have been shown in the Bible. Rather you just just keep teaching what is wrong. To me that is what is really unacceptable. However, if you were to stop teaching false teachings contrary to the Bible then I would forgive you as well.

LOL.