Contradictory statements

[Zzyzx]

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Contradictory statements

Words attributed to Jesus by Luke and Matthew (whoever they may have been) appear to be contradictory (as well as perhaps irrational -- particularly those cited by "Luke").

Luke 14:26 “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Matthew 22:39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets

Love your neighbor – but hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters (and yourself)?

Do unto others (hate them) as you would have them do to you (hate you)?

In psychiatry and psychology, maintaining two or more contradictory statements or positions is viewed as an indication of schizophrenia . . .

Do the statements quoted seem like wise words from a wonderful teacher / leader / preacher?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 39 by Wootah]

How can Z spot a contradiction if he can't determine if up is up or down is down?

Strictly speaking, there is no absolute up, or absolute down. If I pick up a globe, and drill through the North Pole to the center, I am going down from the North Pole's perspective. If I drill through the South Pole to the center, I am going down from the SP's perspective but going up from the NP's point of view.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 40 by rikuoamero]

I fail to see how my case isn't plain. Now you are not in the relativistic position Z is in, until you put yourself there.

I explained his contradiction easily and he couldn't follow it and as we dig deeper the why seems to be the relativistic muddle we have uncovered.

If one can't work out whether up is up or down is down then how can we explain other logical issues?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 39 by Wootah]

How can Z spot a contradiction if he can't determine if up is up or down is down?

Strictly speaking, there is no absolute up, or absolute down. If I pick up a globe, and drill through the North Pole to the center, I am going down from the North Pole's perspective. If I drill through the South Pole to the center, I am going down from the SP's perspective but going up from the NP's point of view.

And yet do we really need to go there for this discussion? Let's just deal with our normal reality. We all know which way is up.

The interesting thing is that if we all know which way is up, then we all know that there is good and evil and hating evil is OK. Which is the explanation quite frankly to the contradiction.

If God is love then putting anything else before God is evil.

The rest is not a contradiction but a wisdom issue. Not many can see that putting their families first is often evil.

But boy oh boy some people are determined to deny up and down if that means creating a contradiction in the bible.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 31 by 1213]



[center]
An amazing kind of question[/center]

Please explain, what do you think love and hate means? And what do you think Bible means with hate and love? Why are they contradictory?

What does love and hate mean?

That's pretty much like the joke about the person asking the price of an expensive yacht.. the answer is.. if you have to ask, you can't afford it, or in this case, if you have to ask what love and hate mean ... that's an AWESOME bit of ignorance.

You can just go ahead and look at any English dictionary.
If you want to know what the Greek means, you can go ahead and look at any of the many Bible translations.

Generally speaking, love and hate represent human emotions. One is about intense dislike, and the other is about intense like. I will let you guess which one is which.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 41 by rikuoamero]

How can Z spot a contradiction if he can't determine if up is up or down is down?

Strictly speaking, there is no absolute up, or absolute down.

If you think there is NO distinction between love and hate, or up and down. I feel quite sad for you.

But, I don't think you are crazy.. I think you can.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 43 by Wootah]

And yet do we really need to go there for this discussion? Let's just deal with our normal reality. We all know which way is up.

If I'm standing at the North Pole and pointing up, and John stands at the South Pole and is pointing up, John is pointing in the direction that from my point of view I would call down.
If you disagree with the notion of "There is no absolute up, no absolute down", please refute this...somehow.

The interesting thing is that if we all know which way is up, then we all know that there is good and evil and hating evil is OK.

Both John and I 'know' which way is up from our own subjective locations. Also, your conclusion is a non-sequiter. It doesn't follow. You have not demonstrated an absolute up (we're still talking about up as in co-ordinates in space time that are above us?) and even if you had, how does that then flow to us knowing good and evil? If I point to the sky above my head and say "That's up there", what relevance does that have to a discussion about good and evil, love and hate?

Which is the explanation quite frankly to the contradiction.

I disagree because from my point of view, it has no relevance.

If God is love then putting anything else before God is evil.

Is it? Is it as simple as that? What is 'love'? Did you know there are four words for love (that I am aware of) in the Greek language? Which of them are we talking about? Is it forbidden for us to feel love in any sense of the word (whether in Greek or in English) for something more than God?

The rest is not a contradiction but a wisdom issue. Not many can see that putting their families first is often evil.

Oh boy, you do NOT want to go there with me of all people, given that I DID lose my family, for years at a time, and am likely to live the rest of my life never having contact again with certain members.

But boy oh boy some people are determined to deny up and down if that means creating a contradiction in the bible.

Boy oh boy, some people are determined to talk about an absolute up and down and deny that certain verses in the Bible (if at least on face value) talk about both loving and hating one's family/neighbours.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 41 by rikuoamero]

How can Z spot a contradiction if he can't determine if up is up or down is down?

Strictly speaking, there is no absolute up, or absolute down.

If you think there is NO distinction between love and hate, or up and down. I feel quite sad for you.

But, I don't think you are crazy.. I think you can.

There is of course a distinction between love and hate, and between up and down. What I'm disagreeing with here on this thread is that there is an absolute up/down, and that Zzyzx apparently cannot comment on what he sees as a contradiction in the Bible because...he's a moral relativist, and cannot tell the difference between up and down?

[Blastcat]

There is of course a distinction between love and hate, and between up and down. What I'm disagreeing with here on this thread is that there is an absolute up/down, and that Zzyzx apparently cannot comment on what he sees as a contradiction in the Bible because...he's a moral relativist, and cannot tell the difference between up and down?

Poor ZzYzx... someone call 911.. he is going to fall.

[Zzyzx]

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Your relativism disqualifies you from diagnosing contradictions.

Correction: No 'morality' or 'relativism' is involved in observing that up contradicts down and that love contradicts hate – using nothing more sophisticated than definitions of the terms.

Do you understand that?

Do you understand that? If so, your 'point' is invalid.

How can Z spot a contradiction if he can't determine if up is up or down is down?

Z can probably do better with a determination of what is up and what is down than 'moral absolutists'.

As I explained to freshman Earth science and geology students, up is precisely and scientifically defined as 'away from the center of the Earth' (and down is 'toward').

That makes the terms 'up' and 'down' RELATIVE to the Earth. They have NO MEANING in space – or in any 'absolute' or 'universal' sense.

What, BTW, is your (or an absolute) definition / identification of up and down? Can you define them or tell their meaning WITHOUT relating them to each other or to another reference datum?

edit: How can he claim one verse talks about love and another about hate if it's all relative?

The words love and hate are used in the Bible supposedly quoting Jesus and referring to family. Hate them – love them.

Can that somehow be warped enough to claim it is not a contradiction?

Even using creative 'interpretation' to claim the Bible is mistranslated does not resolve the conflict – but doing so DOES indicate that English language Bibles cannot be trusted to mean what they say and say what they mean. I agree.

Compassion is lost when we become moral relativists. Sure being hungry is bad but we all feel hungry now and then. It's the moral relativist who does nothing.

This 'moral relativist' is actively and consistently involved in feeding the hungry (and many similar things) while many or most 'moral absolutists' (and/or my 'Christian' neighbors and acquaitances) are not -- or do so 'now and then'.

Where 'the rubber meets the road' what is the value of a claimed 'absolute' or 'universal' morality -- when it is only or largely a wishful idealism?

How can that be?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 49 by Zzyzx]



[center]


Are you using atheist English again?[/center]

Your relativism disqualifies you from diagnosing contradictions.

Correction: No 'morality' or 'relativism' is involved in observing that up contradicts down and that love contradicts hate – using nothing more sophisticated than definitions of the terms.

Now, just hold on a minute, there, Z.
Hold your horses.

Are you saying that up is the opposite of down and that hate is the opposite of love?

Are you perhaps using the atheist kind of English language and NOT the RELIGIOUS English language that might NOT recognize the difference between, up, down love and hate?

Apparently, in religious English "it's all good".