Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

[dio9]

Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm debating that list here, JW.
viewtopic.php?p=851220#851220

[dio9]

[Replying to post 12 by dio9]

Deuteronomy 23:2, but oops, it is the tenth generation (or never), not third.

Would you say Jesus had a "birther" issue?

One Gospel, Mt. 13:55 says, "Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? ".

The people here knew him to be Joseph the carpenters son. Matthew even gives him a human genealogy, from Abraham through David to Joseph.

Even if there is the queer story of his birth in Mt. 1:18 ...

"18 Now the birth of Jesus the Messiah took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been engaged to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19 Her husband Joseph, being a righteous man and unwilling to expose her to public disgrace, planned to dismiss her quietly. 20 But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Could this be some sort of a heavenly cover up or maybe a response to the charge against the Christians Christ legitimacy ? Why else bring it up ?
Again , 13:55 notes the people of Nazareth during Jesus' lifetime believed him to be the legitimate son of Joseph .
30 or 40 years later, when this Gospel was written, Matthew brings up this scandalous birth story? Why?

The scandal of illegitimacy may have been a later attack in the ongoing fight between siblings , Christians and Jews , saying your Christ is not legitimate attacking the foundation of Christian belief with Dt. 23:2

[onewithhim]

Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?

No, Jesus definitely did not think of himself as the second person of the ERRONEOUS trinity. He always said that he was in subjection to his Father, and his Father was HIS GOD and he could do nothing on his own.

Jesus may not have fulfilled the JEWISH expectations, but he fulfilled what THE BIBLE said about him. (Isaiah 53 being an excellent example.) Don't you remember what Jesus had to say about the religious leaders? Read just Matthew chapter 23 and you'll get a good idea. They didn't have the right ideas!

The "Christian Christ" and the "Jewish Jesus" are one and the same. He fulfilled all that the Hebrew Scriptures said about him up to that point when he was on the earth, and he will fulfill the rest in the near future. The books of Revelation and Daniel are very close in meaning.

.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

Well if they understood their own scripture they would have accepted Jesus as the Messiah.

So how does Jesus Christ fulfill Micah 5? You look at ONLY the one verse that (if interpreted 'correctly') says he will be born in the town of Bethlehem, but I'm pretty sure the Jews would have been paying attention to the REST of Micah as well, which states that their Messiah will be a military leader who will protect them from the Assyrians.

It seems to me here that 'understood' in JW's eyes means 'pay attention to only selected verses'.

[oldbadger]

Two questions;
Do you think Jesus thought of his mission as the Jews hoped for messiah?

Hi....
No. I think that Jesus agreed exactly with John the Baptist's mission and wanted to extend it into Galilee.

Do you think he thought of his mission was to fulfill the Christians idea of Christ?

There was no idea of Christians, or Christ, or Christianity during his lifetime.
I reckon that Jesus was only interested in a return of Jewish laws and protections for the working Jewish people. The Priesthood was just a corrupt mass of greed, hellenised to Roman and Greek fashions, Gods and cultures.
Jesus was for the Jewish peasant classes, and I think I can show that fairly well, even at this point in my studies.

I know he asked the disciples who the people think that he is, but who did he think he was?

So he asked his followers what the people thought of him. I expect that every politician or councilor seeking votes has asked that question a hundred or more times, each.
But I do think that imprison John the Baptist did send disciples to him to find out more about him, because John had heard that Jesus liked his drink and company with undesirables.


I hope I answered clearly?

[oldbadger]

Would you say Jesus had a "birther" issue?

The above was sent to another member.
I would like to answer..?
No. Jesus was a 'land-displaced' Galilean peasant, a handworker, and it is unlikely that these folks had any written documents about their birth line. They may well have held an oral-tradition to memorise some of their past, but the possibility that threy had Judean relatives going way-back is strange. Galileans converted to Judaism only a few hundreds years before the 1st century, I believe.

One Gospel, Mt. 13:55 says, "Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? ".

This could show that Jesus had been away from Nazareth fpr a long time, probably working for boatmen along the Capernaum shoreline. So when he popped up in Nazareth, some folks asked, '#Say.... isn't that Jesus?'

The people here knew him to be Joseph the carpenters son. Matthew even gives him a human genealogy, from Abraham through David to Joseph.

I think that Matthew's genealogy is contgived rubbish, much like his nativity story. It could well be a Christian addition. seeking to fulfill a prophesy.

[Elijah John]

Two questions;
Do you think Jesus thought of his mission as the Jews hoped for messiah?

Hi....
No. I think that Jesus agreed exactly with John the Baptist's mission and wanted to extend it into Galilee.

Do you think he thought of his mission was to fulfill the Christians idea of Christ?

There was no idea of Christians, or Christ, or Christianity during his lifetime.
I reckon that Jesus was only interested in a return of Jewish laws and protections for the working Jewish people. The Priesthood was just a corrupt mass of greed, hellenised to Roman and Greek fashions, Gods and cultures.
Jesus was for the Jewish peasant classes, and I think I can show that fairly well, even at this point in my studies.

I know he asked the disciples who the people think that he is, but who did he think he was?

So he asked his followers what the people thought of him. I expect that every politician or councilor seeking votes has asked that question a hundred or more times, each.
But I do think that imprison John the Baptist did send disciples to him to find out more about him, because John had heard that Jesus liked his drink and company with undesirables.


I hope I answered clearly?

And John's mission was to prepare the way for the LORD, as in Yahweh, not the "Lord" as in Jesus.

You seem to be saying they were both apocalyptic prophets expecting Yahweh's direct and decisive intervention in order to establish the Kingdom of God/Heaven on earth, and if so, I agree.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 27 by Elijah John]
"I hope I answered clearly?"

not exactly, who do you think Jesus thought he was? Jewish messiah, Christian Christ, or non of the above?

[oldbadger]

And John's mission was to prepare the way for the LORD, as in Yahweh, not the "Lord" as in Jesus.

You seem to be saying they were both apocalyptic prophets expecting Yahweh's direct and decisive intervention in order to establish the Kingdom of God/Heaven on earth, and if so, I agree.

Hi.....
Well, yes....... At this time I am still quite overcome by your own advice about Jesus's support for 'mercy, and not sacrifice' and this has overflowed into John's 'immersion and confession for the redemption of sins' also copied by Jesus's disciples. This whole 'point' has become like a tidal wave, extending beyond the corrupt disgrace of Temple taxes, fees, and civilian subsistence charges etc, and on to the Temple coin, the Tyrian half-shekel with obverse Melgarth-Heracles (Jewish Baal?) and Reverse Graven image of an Eagle...... both John and Jesus would have seen this (imo) as a typical example of the careless, corrupt, Hellenization of the quisling priesthood.

And so I ask you, could both have simply been insurrectionists against the Priesthood, standing for the return of the old laws, yet not strongly against Roman domination? Would you see this mindset as that of a Messiah?

[ttruscott]

They were looking for what they, not God, wanted in a Messiah and rejected both.

Plus He did the three miracles the Jews held could only be performed by the Jewish Messiah: healing a Jewish leper, the exorcism of a mute demon and the healing of the sight of a man born blind which they apparently took from Isaiah 35:5.