The principle of atonement

[Checkpoint]

Or is it contrary to it?

A number of questions may be asked and answered on a thread like this.

For example:

What is the principle of atonement?

What part does atonement play in scripture, and in the old and new covenants?

How can we know what does and does not reflect the character [and ways] of God?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 47 by Justin108

What does any of this have to do with the topic of blood-atonement and it's implications regarding God's character?

If the subject does not interest you, forum rules do not compel you to participate in any given topic.

I've given you my answers.

You are a master at avoiding questions. Well done. By all means, keep questioning other people's beliefs while refusing to have yours questioned. Unfortunately, hiding behind forum rules makes it impossible for me to do a thing about it.

Go ahead and question/challenge my position...as it pertains to the topic.

And because I may or may not participate on another thread you may wish to start, does not give you the right to undermine and derail this one.

[otseng]

You are a master at avoiding questions.

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[onewithhim]

Why do you seem so eager to end this discussion?

Because it is off-topic

See you've used this excuse before. And then I opened a topic about it, and you refused to participate. So this is not about it being off topic. It's about you just refusing to justify your belief.

And because I don't believe I can convince non-Theists of God's existence.

Do you think anyone on this site is here to convince anyone of anything? I've been here long enough to assure you that's virtually impossible. All I aim to do is listen to your reasoning and critique it. Are you uncomfortable with that? Then I question your choice of coming to this site. Why do you question people for believing Jesus is God yet evade questions when they are directed at your beliefs? Why do you expect others to justify their beliefs yet you refuse to justify your own?

But because I believe all that is good (and life itself) comes from God

But why do you believe that? And why do only believe that about all that is good? What about all that is bad? Where does that come from?

That every good impulse in humankind is from God. Including our ability to write and communicate.

Where do our bad influences come from?

I have rational (as well as intuitive) reasons for believing the Bible is a mixture of good (or God-inspired) and bad (or at least erroneous).

Do these rational reasons rest on more than the assumption that all that is good comes from God? And just to make things clear, I am not asking if "God exists". We can assume for argument sake that he does. I am asking if all that is good necessarily comes from God as this, to me, seems like a baseless assumption.

If you want to debate God's basic existence, or whether He had anything to do with the Bible, please do so on another thread.

This has already been a derailment.

I would gladly debate your assumption that all that is good comes from God on another thread, but you would not participate, so what's the point?

I would like to throw in my $.02 if I may. All good things come from the loving, kind, caring God that created all things. Yes, everything that is good can be attributed to Him. Nothing that is bad can be attributed to Him.

He created everything perfect and good. He also gave his intelligent creatures FREE WILL, so that each of them could make up his own mind about what he will accept or reject. He did not want robots to be His friends. He wanted friends who WANTED to be friends with Him. Some of the intelligent creatures decided to turn against Him. One glorious angel became Satan, the Devil, and perhaps a third of all the angels followed him. Then Adam and Eve exercised their free will and chose to rebel against their Father, Jehovah. That is where all the bad comes from----deliberate choices to disobey God and turn around and do their own thing.

Evil doesn't come from God. It comes from those who oppose Him.

[Justin108]

Why do you seem so eager to end this discussion?

Because it is off-topic

See you've used this excuse before. And then I opened a topic about it, and you refused to participate. So this is not about it being off topic. It's about you just refusing to justify your belief.

And because I don't believe I can convince non-Theists of God's existence.

Do you think anyone on this site is here to convince anyone of anything? I've been here long enough to assure you that's virtually impossible. All I aim to do is listen to your reasoning and critique it. Are you uncomfortable with that? Then I question your choice of coming to this site. Why do you question people for believing Jesus is God yet evade questions when they are directed at your beliefs? Why do you expect others to justify their beliefs yet you refuse to justify your own?

But because I believe all that is good (and life itself) comes from God

But why do you believe that? And why do only believe that about all that is good? What about all that is bad? Where does that come from?

That every good impulse in humankind is from God. Including our ability to write and communicate.

Where do our bad influences come from?

I have rational (as well as intuitive) reasons for believing the Bible is a mixture of good (or God-inspired) and bad (or at least erroneous).

Do these rational reasons rest on more than the assumption that all that is good comes from God? And just to make things clear, I am not asking if "God exists". We can assume for argument sake that he does. I am asking if all that is good necessarily comes from God as this, to me, seems like a baseless assumption.

If you want to debate God's basic existence, or whether He had anything to do with the Bible, please do so on another thread.

This has already been a derailment.

I would gladly debate your assumption that all that is good comes from God on another thread, but you would not participate, so what's the point?

I would like to throw in my $.02 if I may. All good things come from the loving, kind, caring God that created all things. Yes, everything that is good can be attributed to Him. Nothing that is bad can be attributed to Him.

Ok. How do you know?

[onewithhim]

Why do you seem so eager to end this discussion?

Because it is off-topic

See you've used this excuse before. And then I opened a topic about it, and you refused to participate. So this is not about it being off topic. It's about you just refusing to justify your belief.

And because I don't believe I can convince non-Theists of God's existence.

Do you think anyone on this site is here to convince anyone of anything? I've been here long enough to assure you that's virtually impossible. All I aim to do is listen to your reasoning and critique it. Are you uncomfortable with that? Then I question your choice of coming to this site. Why do you question people for believing Jesus is God yet evade questions when they are directed at your beliefs? Why do you expect others to justify their beliefs yet you refuse to justify your own?

But because I believe all that is good (and life itself) comes from God

But why do you believe that? And why do only believe that about all that is good? What about all that is bad? Where does that come from?

That every good impulse in humankind is from God. Including our ability to write and communicate.

Where do our bad influences come from?

I have rational (as well as intuitive) reasons for believing the Bible is a mixture of good (or God-inspired) and bad (or at least erroneous).

Do these rational reasons rest on more than the assumption that all that is good comes from God? And just to make things clear, I am not asking if "God exists". We can assume for argument sake that he does. I am asking if all that is good necessarily comes from God as this, to me, seems like a baseless assumption.

If you want to debate God's basic existence, or whether He had anything to do with the Bible, please do so on another thread.

This has already been a derailment.

I would gladly debate your assumption that all that is good comes from God on another thread, but you would not participate, so what's the point?

I would like to throw in my $.02 if I may. All good things come from the loving, kind, caring God that created all things. Yes, everything that is good can be attributed to Him. Nothing that is bad can be attributed to Him.

Ok. How do you know?

Because I have seen by His creations what kind of Person He is. He so obviously, to me, is loving and kind and even has a sense of humor! Look at all of the things He has provided for us---such variety in all things, delicious foods that grow out of a tiny seed, beautiful trees that also grow out of a small seed, clouds in the beautiful blue sky, so many kinds of animals and birds, all with their own interesting characteristics, the awesomeness of reproduction and the sweetness of a new-born baby......what amazing things!

"Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow." (James 1:17, NASB)

.

[Justin108]

Why do you seem so eager to end this discussion?

Because it is off-topic

See you've used this excuse before. And then I opened a topic about it, and you refused to participate. So this is not about it being off topic. It's about you just refusing to justify your belief.

And because I don't believe I can convince non-Theists of God's existence.

Do you think anyone on this site is here to convince anyone of anything? I've been here long enough to assure you that's virtually impossible. All I aim to do is listen to your reasoning and critique it. Are you uncomfortable with that? Then I question your choice of coming to this site. Why do you question people for believing Jesus is God yet evade questions when they are directed at your beliefs? Why do you expect others to justify their beliefs yet you refuse to justify your own?

But because I believe all that is good (and life itself) comes from God

But why do you believe that? And why do only believe that about all that is good? What about all that is bad? Where does that come from?

That every good impulse in humankind is from God. Including our ability to write and communicate.

Where do our bad influences come from?

I have rational (as well as intuitive) reasons for believing the Bible is a mixture of good (or God-inspired) and bad (or at least erroneous).

Do these rational reasons rest on more than the assumption that all that is good comes from God? And just to make things clear, I am not asking if "God exists". We can assume for argument sake that he does. I am asking if all that is good necessarily comes from God as this, to me, seems like a baseless assumption.

If you want to debate God's basic existence, or whether He had anything to do with the Bible, please do so on another thread.

This has already been a derailment.

I would gladly debate your assumption that all that is good comes from God on another thread, but you would not participate, so what's the point?

I would like to throw in my $.02 if I may. All good things come from the loving, kind, caring God that created all things. Yes, everything that is good can be attributed to Him. Nothing that is bad can be attributed to Him.

Ok. How do you know?

Because I have seen by His creations

How do you know it's his creations? How do you know a different god didn't make everything? How do you know it was YHWH?

Look at all of the things He has provided for us---such variety in all things, delicious foods that grow out of a tiny seed, beautiful trees that also grow out of a small seed, clouds in the beautiful blue sky, so many kinds of animals and birds, all with their own interesting characteristics, the awesomeness of reproduction and the sweetness of a new-born baby......what amazing things!

Why do theists only ever point to all the lovely pretty things in the world? Why do you ignore things like disease, hunger, pain?

"Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."

And what about the bad things?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 4 by Elijah John]

There are many verses in Scripture that indicate YHVH prefers other things to blood-sacrifice.

Things such as mercy, knowledge of God, and contrition:
(Micah 6.6-6.8, Hosea 6.6, Psalm 40.6, Psalm 51.16-17, Proverbs 21.3, Isaiah 1.10-13a, Isaiah 66.2b-4a,Jeremiah 7.21-13, Matthew 9.13,12.7, Mark 12.33, just to name a few)

"prefers" is the operative word on this issue.

Both are part of God's plan, both are stated in the Law. One is outward ritual, the other is inward righteousness.

The time would come when animal sacrifices were rendered obsolete and no longer appropriate, but none of your verses are about that.

They are about preference and priority, not about legitimacy.

[more today or tomorrow]

[onewithhim]

Why do you seem so eager to end this discussion?

Because it is off-topic

See you've used this excuse before. And then I opened a topic about it, and you refused to participate. So this is not about it being off topic. It's about you just refusing to justify your belief.

And because I don't believe I can convince non-Theists of God's existence.

Do you think anyone on this site is here to convince anyone of anything? I've been here long enough to assure you that's virtually impossible. All I aim to do is listen to your reasoning and critique it. Are you uncomfortable with that? Then I question your choice of coming to this site. Why do you question people for believing Jesus is God yet evade questions when they are directed at your beliefs? Why do you expect others to justify their beliefs yet you refuse to justify your own?

But because I believe all that is good (and life itself) comes from God

But why do you believe that? And why do only believe that about all that is good? What about all that is bad? Where does that come from?

That every good impulse in humankind is from God. Including our ability to write and communicate.

Where do our bad influences come from?

I have rational (as well as intuitive) reasons for believing the Bible is a mixture of good (or God-inspired) and bad (or at least erroneous).

Do these rational reasons rest on more than the assumption that all that is good comes from God? And just to make things clear, I am not asking if "God exists". We can assume for argument sake that he does. I am asking if all that is good necessarily comes from God as this, to me, seems like a baseless assumption.

If you want to debate God's basic existence, or whether He had anything to do with the Bible, please do so on another thread.

This has already been a derailment.

I would gladly debate your assumption that all that is good comes from God on another thread, but you would not participate, so what's the point?

I would like to throw in my $.02 if I may. All good things come from the loving, kind, caring God that created all things. Yes, everything that is good can be attributed to Him. Nothing that is bad can be attributed to Him.

Ok. How do you know?

Because I have seen by His creations

How do you know it's his creations? How do you know a different god didn't make everything? How do you know it was YHWH?

Look at all of the things He has provided for us---such variety in all things, delicious foods that grow out of a tiny seed, beautiful trees that also grow out of a small seed, clouds in the beautiful blue sky, so many kinds of animals and birds, all with their own interesting characteristics, the awesomeness of reproduction and the sweetness of a new-born baby......what amazing things!

Why do theists only ever point to all the lovely pretty things in the world? Why do you ignore things like disease, hunger, pain?

"Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."

And what about the bad things?

Didn't I answer that already? The bad things happen when people and angels oppose Jehovah. If they always had obeyed Him, everyone's life would have been enjoyable, peaceful, fulfilling and happy. If Adam had not turned against Jehovah, he would still be here and there would be no things like disease, hunger and pain.

[Justin108]

Didn't I answer that already?

You didn't answer my main question, namely "how do you know"?

The bad things happen when people and angels oppose Jehovah.

Why does malaria exist? Did people mess up or did the angels?

If Adam had not turned against Jehovah, he would still be here and there would be no things like disease, hunger and pain.

Why did God punish all of us for what Adam did?

[onewithhim]

Didn't I answer that already?

You didn't answer my main question, namely "how do you know"?

The bad things happen when people and angels oppose Jehovah.

Why does malaria exist? Did people mess up or did the angels?

If Adam had not turned against Jehovah, he would still be here and there would be no things like disease, hunger and pain.

Why did God punish all of us for what Adam did?

I guess you weren't around when I have gone into lengthy explanations of that. That's OK. I'll try to explain again.

1) God was merciful not to expunge Adam from existence right away, and He let Adam go ahead and procreate. After all, it was Jehovah's purpose to have ADAM fill the earth with people and take care of everything. He stuck to His plan, and if He did not, you and I wouldn't be here.

2) Having said that, the main point is that Adam had disobeyed bringing aging and death upon himself. Now, how could he pass on to his offspring perfection and sinlessness? He couldn't. So we have a scientific explanation.....Adam's DNA was somehow adjusted by God so that he would not live forever, due to the stated consequence of his actions. Jehovah did not blame Adam's progeny. The suffering and death to the offspring came because of Adam's imperfect DNA. He passed sin and death on to his descendants. Jehovah didn't want Adam's descendants to die, and He implemented a plan to bring them back into a good relationship with Him.

3) Jehovah always abides by His own rules, and one of them was to carry through on stated consequences. He told Adam he would die if he disobeyed, and that came about. Another one was not so much a rule as the fact that He loved mankind and wanted Adam's children to have a chance. Then another rule, if you will, was that to counter-balance the damage that Adam had done, there needed to be like action to atone for that damage. ("Eye for an eye," etc.) That meant that another perfect man must counter Adam's disobedience by remaining obedient, and he also must give up his own human life for the lives of all those affected by Adam's treachery.


"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:18,19, NASB)