Wouldn't it be better not to have freewil?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:06 pm

Theists tend to defend freewill as something that is just so important that it would be somehow a terrible thing if we did not have it.

However freewill for many people will result in them rejecting God and ending up in Hell, which many Christians believe will be eternal suffering.

I'm struggling to see how freewill is a good thing if it results in us going to Hell and perhaps suffering for all eternity.

I am reminded of a verse in the bible where Jesus says " For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:36

It's saying that riches... and continually seeking riches is not a good thing if it results in you losing your soul... ie going to Hell. It's saying that if something is going to cause us to lose our soul then we should avoid it.

Shouldn't the same thing be said about freewill? Should there not also be a scripture that says "For what shall it profit a man to have freewill and lose his own soul?"

So question for debate:

Would it be better to live on earth with Freewill and suffer for all eternity for rejecting Christ or would it be better to give up your freewill so that you can avoid eternal suffering?

Is freewill really such a necessity for a happy life?

Wouldn't life be better if nobody had freewill so nobody could ever do evil? (Like in Heaven)

Monta · Post by **Monta** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:00 am

Bust Nak wrote:
Monta wrote: "Better than being forced into Hell"

I don't recallect it said that anyone is forced into hell - or heaven.
Oh? According to Christianity, if my name is not found in the "book of life," do I have the option to choose to go elsewhere other than hell, on "Judgement day?"

If you want your name to be there,
make sure it is.

imo many people sincerely have no concept of God but they also do not run around and mouth off things they do not know or care about i.e. religion. Wise thinking.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:52 am

Monta wrote:
Bust Nak wrote:
Monta wrote: "Better than being forced into Hell"

I don't recallect it said that anyone is forced into hell - or heaven.
Oh? According to Christianity, if my name is not found in the "book of life," do I have the option to choose to go elsewhere other than hell, on "Judgement day?"
If you want your name to be there,
make sure it is.

imo many people sincerely have no concept of God but they also do not run around and mouth off things they do not know or care about i.e. religion. Wise thinking.

That does not answer my question directly, but sounded very much like a no, as an unbeliever, I cannot at the moment of Judgment, exercise my free will and choose to not go to hell. That means being "forced into hell," no?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:29 pm

Bust Nak wrote: That does not answer my question directly, but sounded very much like a no, as an unbeliever, I cannot at the moment of Judgment, exercise my free will and choose to not go to hell. That means being "forced into hell," no?

The problem is that having already become a sinner by your free will you have lost your free will by an addiction to sin which permeates, to some extent, all your decisions, changing your will to what Christians call a self will or a sinful nature.

So while you were not forced to become a sinner and lose your free will, once it is lost to you, unless you asked GOD to save your from the legal and natural consequences of becoming a sinner before you became a sinner, you will indeed be forced against your will, your sinful will, to a place of banishment. Those who rejected GOD as a sinful liar, not a real GOD, did in fact choose hell over heaven by their free will, being willing to face hell (if HE should ever prove HE was GOD) rather than take any chance they would have to share HIS heaven.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:38 am

[Replying to post 82 by ttruscott]
Please bear in mind that my respond was not addressed to a believer of pre-creation. But to answer your post:

In other words, nothing we do while here matters, those who are elected will be saved regardless, those who are not elected, were doomed to hell from the moment of birth. All the talk of free will applies only to pre-creation.

All you've done is push the typical concept of Judgement day back further back time. In this sense, Judgement day already happened, we (the angels, the sinful elected and the un-elected) have all been judged. And some of us are right now, in this very moment, being very slowly casted into the "lake of fire" (place of banishment,) in a long drawn out process that lasts a life time. So it doesn't change the question at all, which is better:

1) No free will, resulting in no one in hell, (and perhaps no one in heaven depending on particular theology / teachings); or

2) Free will, resulting in some in hell, and some in heaven?

We both know that Christians can't say 1) so lets hear it: Affirm for me that you think it is better that some end up in hell, as long as others get into heaven. Tell us that people in hell, is a worthy price to pay for the trade off that others in heaven.

It is us unelected sinners who have been sacrificed, so you believers can go to heaven.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:11 pm

Bust Nak wrote: [Replying to post 82 by ttruscott]
Please bear in mind that my respond was not addressed to a believer of pre-creation. But to answer your post:

In other words, nothing we do while here matters, those who are elected will be saved regardless, those who are not elected, were doomed to hell from the moment of birth. All the talk of free will applies only to pre-creation.

I'm sorry but when speaking about PCE it is confusing since orthodoxy calls our birth our creation...To make sense in PCE Theology, it should read: In other words, nothing we do while here matters, those who are elected will be saved regardless, those who are not elected, were doomed to hell from the moment of their choice to rebel long before the creation of the earth. All the talk of free will applies only to pre-sin being chosen before the creation of the physical universe. The Bible gives us Jesus' words that the those who are unbelievers are condemned already, Jn 3:18, and without explaining already when, context supports already when born.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:14 pm

Bust Nak wrote: Affirm for me that you think it is better that some end up in hell, as long as others get into heaven.

Answered post #74...

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:10 am

ttruscott wrote:
Bust Nak wrote: Affirm for me that you think it is better that some end up in hell, as long as others get into heaven.
Answered post #74...

I read that as a yes, it is better that some end up in hell, as long as others get into heaven, because a whole lot more gets into heaven than ending up in hell.

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:13 pm

Monta wrote: [Replying to post 77 by OnceConvinced]

"Better than being forced into Hell"

I don't recallect it said that anyone is forced into hell - or heaven.

Then you clearly missed these words said by Jesus:

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

So Jesus will have his angels physically remove us and thrown into Hell.