Is fire alive?

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Galphanore
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Is fire alive?

Post #1

Post by Galphanore »

  • life (līf)
    n., pl. lives (līvz).
    The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
  • me·tab·o·lism (mĭ-tăb'ə-lĭz'əm)
    n.
    The chemical processes occurring within a living cell or organism that are necessary for the maintenance of life. In metabolism some substances are broken down to yield energy for vital processes while other substances, necessary for life, are synthesized.
    The processing of a specific substance within the living body: water metabolism; iodine metabolism.
From what I can tell fire fits that definition quite well, and yet we all, generally, do not consider it alive. What defintion for life are we using internally then? And why can we not communicate it in a way that is understandable?
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McCulloch
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Re: Is fire alive?

Post #2

Post by McCulloch »

Dawkins has a good answer to that. No time to look it up now. I'll try to find it an post it.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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methylatedghosts
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Post #3

Post by methylatedghosts »

Ah, what were all the criteria again? Learned this in school. MRS GREN I believe

M - movement - check
R - respiration (gas exchange) - check
S - <----Sensitivity?
G - Growth - check
R - Reproduction - I'm not sure..... does fire make a copy of itself?
E - Excretement - check (ash I suppose)
N -

Not too sure about the S and the N, but this is kinda amusing :D
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Galphanore
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Post #4

Post by Galphanore »

methylatedghosts wrote:Ah, what were all the criteria again? Learned this in school. MRS GREN I believe

M - movement - check
R - respiration (gas exchange) - check
S - <----Sensitivity?
G - Growth - check
R - Reproduction - I'm not sure..... does fire make a copy of itself?
E - Excretement - check (ash I suppose)
N -

Not too sure about the S and the N, but this is kinda amusing :D
sen·si·tiv·i·ty (s&#277;n's&#301;-t&#301;v'&#301;-t&#275;) pronunciation
n., pl. -ties.
  1. The quality or condition of being sensitive.
  2. The capacity of an organ or organism to respond to stimulation.
If you poke the base of a fire with a stick, what happens?

Reproduction, when fire is near another source of fuel it spreads, sometimes in two directions at once. Then the original fuel is burned up and you have two fires. That's very similar to mitosis.

N - Nutrition, it consumes wood and various other flammable things. So it has a diet of preferable foods and it eats.
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methylatedghosts
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Post #5

Post by methylatedghosts »

Galphanore wrote:sen·si·tiv·i·ty (s&#277;n's&#301;-t&#301;v'&#301;-t&#275;) pronunciation
n., pl. -ties.
  1. The quality or condition of being sensitive.
  2. The capacity of an organ or organism to respond to stimulation.
If you poke the base of a fire with a stick, what happens?

Reproduction, when fire is near another source of fuel it spreads, sometimes in two directions at once. Then the original fuel is burned up and you have two fires. That's very similar to mitosis.

N - Nutrition, it consumes wood and various other flammable things. So it has a diet of preferable foods and it eats.
Nah I was saying I wasn't sure what S and N stood for.

I think you've convinced me of the reproduction one.

So far, according to latest definitions, fire is alive.
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Post #6

Post by McCulloch »

In [i]The Ancestor's Tale[/i], Richard Dawkins wrote:Fire stays alive as long as you feed it. Fire breathes air; you can suffocate it by cutting off its oxygen supply, you can drown it with water. Wild fire devours the forest, driving animal prey before it with the speed and ruthlessness of a pack of wolves in (literally) hot pursuit. As with wolves, our ancestors could capture a fire cub as a useful pet, tame it, feed it regularly and clear away its ashy excreta. Before the art of firemaking was discovered, society would have prized the lesser art of husbanding a captured fire. Perhaps a live scion of the home fire was carried in a pot for barter to a neighbouring group whose own fire had unfortunately died.
Wild fires would have been observed giving birth to daughter fires, spitting sparks and leve cinders up on the wind, like dandelion puffs, to land and and seed the dry grass at a distance. Did ergastrine philosophers theorise that fire cannot spontaneously generate, but must always be born of a parent fire, either wild fire out on the plains, or domestic fire fenced in by hearthstones? And did the first firemaking sticks therefore rub out a world view?
Our ancestors might even have imagined a population of reproducing wild fires, or a pedigree of descent among domestic fires traced from a glowing ancestor bought from a distant clan and traded on to others. But sill there was no true heredity. Why not? How can you have reproduction and a pedigree, yet no heredity? This is the lesson fire has for us here.
True heredity would mean the inheritance not of fire itself but of variations among fires. Some fires are yellower than others, some redder. Some roar, some cackle, some hiss, some smoke, some spit. Some have tinges of blue or green amongst the flames. Our ancestors, if they had studied their domesticated wolves, would have noticed a telling difference between dog pedigrees and fire pedigrees. With dogs, like begets like. At least some of what distinguishes one dog from another is handed down by its parents. Of course some comes in sideways too: from food, disease and accident. With fires, all the variation comes from the environment, none descends from the progenitive spark. It comes from the quality and dampness of the fuel, from the lie and strength of the wind, from the drawing qualities of the hearth, from the soil, from traces of copper and potassium that add touches of blue-green and lilac to sodium's yellow flame. Unlike a dog, nothing about the quality of an adult fire arrives via the spark that gave it birth. Blue fires don't beget blue fires. Crackling fires don't inherit their crackle from the parent fire that threw up their initiating spark. Fires exhibit reproduction without heredity.
Page 575,6
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Galphanore
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Post #7

Post by Galphanore »

So it could be claimed that fire is alive but not subject to natural selection. It's a different kind of life then that which we possess.
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Post #8

Post by McCulloch »

Galphanore wrote:So it could be claimed that fire is alive but not subject to natural selection. It's a different kind of life then that which we possess.
Not just natural selection. Inheritance. This attribute is what defines life.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Galphanore
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Post #9

Post by Galphanore »

McCulloch wrote:
Galphanore wrote:So it could be claimed that fire is alive but not subject to natural selection. It's a different kind of life then that which we possess.
Not just natural selection. Inheritance. This attribute is what defines life.
Fair enough. I still hold that this definition applies to our kind of life but will accept it for now.
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methylatedghosts
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Post #10

Post by methylatedghosts »

Although, what about the fire that survives after a dowsing from a bucket off a helicopter - while the one next to it dies..... could that be a form of natural selection, except it is inheritance that prevents it from being true natural selection...
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