Can the God of Moses be reconciled with Jesus of Nazareth?

[Danmark]

If God is Eternal and changeless, can the God of Moses and Abraham be reconciled with the divinity of Jesus and his union with that God as declared in the doctrine of the trinity?
The 'Old Testament' God is clearly a tribal God. He is the God of the Hebrews. He punishes Pharaoh and his people and leads his people out of Egypt, destroying tribes along the way so his chosen people can take their land.
Yet Jesus tells the story of the good Samaritan and rewards the Canaanite woman's faith.*
How can the universal love preached by Jesus be reconciled with the tribal God of Moses and Abraham?

_______________________________
* The woman came and knelt before Him. Lord, help me! she said. He replied, It is not right to take the childrens bread and toss it to their dogs. Yes, Lord, she said, but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters table.
Then Jesus answered, Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted. And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Despite initially showing the prejudice of his tribe, Jesus recognizes we are all one people.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 18 by Danmark]

I am who I am.

I am who I am.

Iawia

That's Yahweh again. Is this a weird coincidence or something sinister?

[Danmark]

But God made a covenant with Abraham for Abraham's offspring (and then again with Isaac, and with Jacob).

Exactly! That is a perfect example of why I claim the Bible represents tribal religion. ONE guy supposedly made a deal with a god to get preferential treatment for his descendants. This is the essence of what makes a religion tribal.

Well, God made a 'deal' with that one guy because of that one guy's faith. He made 'deals' with others because of their faith, as well. Including Noah, including those who exercised faith in Him by leaving Egypt with the Israel, etc. So this IS consistent with people being able to enter into a new covenant with Christ - not because of tribalism - but because of faith. (I am also reminded that these are also those through whom the seed - the Messiah - would come)


The promise made to Abraham that include his offspring (those that Abraham loves) comes from love also. Hence the promises are for us and for our children.


In any case, making a covenant with someone based upon their faith is consistent with bringing people (from all nations, tribes, people and tongues) into the new covenant because of their faith.


Make sense?

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

No. it does not make sense at all. One guy? What it does say to me is nothing more than the immorality of one person or one family or one tribe claiming HE or his are the only ones who know the 'one true god.'

I get all the good stuff that most religions share: be kind to your neighbor. Look for spiritual values instead of chasing money, and so forth. But this utter nonsense and just plain evil about "my tribe is better than yours because God told me so, and he made a deal with me so I can be rich, and you are poor because you don't believe in MY god..." is such obvious evil nonsense I cannot understand how good people can believe in any of it. THAT is the essence of what 'Abraham's Covenant' is saying. I completely reject it. And what is worse, it is reinforced by that horrible story about God telling Abraham to kill his innocent son in order to prove his loyalty to this horrible 'god.' Utter evil nonsense! What is ironic is that millions of very good people, people who are much better than the religion they follow, believe in such utter evil rubbish.

[Mithrae]

[Replying to post 22 by Danmark]

Without wanting to dismiss what are obviously some very strong feelings coming through in your words, I can't help but notice that you still haven't provided any actual evidence, verse references etc. to support the contention of your opening post. On the contrary, you seem to have drifted off into entirely different topics altogether; beliefs of modern Christian sects (post 18) and your personal emotional reactions to how you view some of these stories.

The key point - that even that covenant with Abraham emphasises God's plan that through him "all the families of the earth shall be blessed" - does not seem to be something that you can refute.

[tam]

[Replying to post 23 by Mithrae]

that even that covenant with Abraham emphasises God's plan that through him "all the families of the earth shall be blessed"

Yes, the exact verse that came to my mind as well (not just through Abraham, but through his seed, Christ).

Then there is also this:

Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: All nations will be blessed through you. So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith... Galatians 3:7-9





Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Danmark]

... you still haven't provided any actual evidence, verse references etc. to support the contention of your opening post. ....

It seems to me so obvious that the Hebrew God as portrayed in the Jewish Bible, the Tanakh or 'Old Testament,' is so obviously a TRIBAL god that we can accept that, SHOULD accept that as a given. We even see a nod to this by the Jesus portrayed in the NT, when he jokes with the canaanite woman, calling her a 'dog,' and rejects this tribalism in his story of 'The Good Samaritan.'

I give you and others credit for already understanding this obvious truth. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for you. You could read this for a start:
https://etb-common-sense.blogspot.com/2 ... -gods.html

Object to merely posting a URL? Fine. Let's just go to the many passages that have 'god' telling this single tribe to destroy other tribes that get in its way; assuring them that 'god' has given them THIS land; that 'god' made a deal with Abraham exclusively for one single tribe: Abraham's descendants. This is not controversial. The 'god

[Danmark]

... you still haven't provided any actual evidence, verse references etc. to support the contention of your opening post. ....

It seems to me so obvious that the Hebrew God as portrayed in the Jewish Bible, the Tanakh or 'Old Testament,' is so obviously a TRIBAL god that we can accept that, SHOULD accept that as a given. We even see a nod to this by the Jesus portrayed in the NT, when he jokes with the canaanite woman, calling her a 'dog,' and rejects this tribalism in his story of 'The Good Samaritan.'

I give you and others credit for already understanding this obvious truth. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for you. You could read this for a start:
https://etb-common-sense.blogspot.com/2 ... -gods.html

Object to merely posting a URL? Fine. Let's just go to the many passages that have 'god' telling this single tribe to destroy other tribes that get in its way; assuring them that 'god' has given them THIS land; that 'god' made a deal with Abraham exclusively for one single tribe: Abraham's descendants. This is not controversial. The 'god' of the OT plainly, unashamedly declares he is a tribal God, according to the authors of the OT.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 23 by Mithrae]

that even that covenant with Abraham emphasises God's plan that through him "all the families of the earth shall be blessed"

Yes, the exact verse that came to my mind as well (not just through Abraham, but through his seed, Christ).

Then there is also this:

Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: All nations will be blessed through you. So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith... Galatians 3:7-9

This is an argument that admits my proposition. Abraham (and supposedly this 'god') claim that EVERYONE, All nations," need to believe in the 'god' of a single tribe so that they too may be blessed. IOW, 'Accept us, Join OUR tribe,' and you'll get favors from OUR GOD.' This is the very essence of tribalism.



Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Mithrae]

... you still haven't provided any actual evidence, verse references etc. to support the contention of your opening post. ....

It seems to me so obvious that the Hebrew God as portrayed in the Jewish Bible, the Tanakh or 'Old Testament,' is so obviously a TRIBAL god that we can accept that, SHOULD accept that as a given. We even see a nod to this by the Jesus portrayed in the NT, when he jokes with the canaanite woman, calling her a 'dog,' and rejects this tribalism in his story of 'The Good Samaritan.'

I give you and others credit for already understanding this obvious truth. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for you. You could read this for a start:
https://etb-common-sense.blogspot.com/2 ... -gods.html

Object to merely posting a URL? Fine. Let's just go to the many passages that have 'god' telling this single tribe to destroy other tribes that get in its way; assuring them that 'god' has given them THIS land; that 'god' made a deal with Abraham exclusively for one single tribe: Abraham's descendants. This is not controversial. The 'god' of the OT plainly, unashamedly declares he is a tribal God, according to the authors of the OT.

You are incorrect, and while you may be happy to 'accept as a given' the things which you find convenient or emotionally compelling, I am not. The Tanakh clearly and repeatedly portrays its deity not only as 'a' universal god, but as the universal God, the only God, creator of heaven and earth and all the people and nations within in it - a message which was even explicitly enshrined in the Israelites' weekly remembrance.

• Genesis 1:1
  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
  
  Genesis 14:19
  [Melchizedek] blessed him and said, Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
  
  Exodus 20:11
  For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
  
  Deuteronomy 4:39
  Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
  
  1 Kings 8:27
  But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!
  
  Ezra 1:2
  Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and He has appointed me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
  
  Nehemiah 9:6
  You alone are the Lord. You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them. You give life to all of them
  
  Psalm 89:11
  The heavens are Yours, the earth also is Yours; The world and all it contains, You have founded them.
  
  Psalm 102:25
  Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
  
  Psalm 115:15
  May you be blessed of the Lord, Maker of heaven and earth.
  
  Psalm 146:6
  Who made heaven and earth, The sea and all that is in them; Who keeps faith forever;
  
  Proverbs 3:19
  The Lord by wisdom founded the earth, By understanding He established the heavens.
  
  Isaiah 40:22
  It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
  
  Isaiah 42:5
  Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it,

Need I go on? I mentioned this in my very first post, but you have not responded to this point.

But - once again, as I said in my very first response - the Hebrew scriptures focus primarily on the Hebrew people. Is this really so mind-bogglingly incomprehensible to you? It must be, because you have not responded to this point. You keep mentioning those Israel-specific elements of the Tanakh as if they were somehow unexpected or unusual if that tribe was recording its own perceptions and alleged experiences of a universal deity.

Condemnations of Israelite idolatry and injustices make up probably more than half the book, dozens if not hundreds of times moreso than censures of foreigners or foreign religions. But even from the very beginning of that more specific emphasis on Abraham and his descendants, it is clearly stated that all the extra rules and requirements laid on the Israelites were part of God's plan that "all the families of the earth will be blessed." Even the focus on Israel is explicitly stated as part of a plan to bless all nations. Tam raised this in the second page of discussion, but you have not responded to this point.

Furthermore, non-Hebrews who don't follow the Hebrew religion and have different names for God are clearly praised, such as Melchizedek and Cyrus. I mentioned this in my first and second responses, but you have not responded to this point.

And finally, it is undeniable that Jesus and the early Christians proclaimed Yahweh as the one true God every bit as much as the writers of the Tanakh did: In fact while the Tanakh often seems almost indifferent towards foreign religious practices in its focus on Israel, Jesus' followers went out among the nations to explicitly tell everyone that they would suffer damnation if they didn't accept their God! At the Areopagus (Acts 17) Paul declared that "having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent." Obviously, neither the 'universality' of Jesus nor the exclusive 'tribalism' of the Tanakh seem to bear up under scrutiny; they both fall somewhere in the middle. Again, a fact that I raised in my first two posts, but you have not responded to this point.

But by all means feel free to 'accept as a given' that there is some kind of irreconcilable difference there

[Danmark]

... you still haven't provided any actual evidence, verse references etc. to support the contention of your opening post. ....

It seems to me so obvious that the Hebrew God as portrayed in the Jewish Bible, the Tanakh or 'Old Testament,' is so obviously a TRIBAL god that we can accept that, SHOULD accept that as a given. We even see a nod to this by the Jesus portrayed in the NT, when he jokes with the canaanite woman, calling her a 'dog,' and rejects this tribalism in his story of 'The Good Samaritan.'

I give you and others credit for already understanding this obvious truth. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for you. You could read this for a start:
https://etb-common-sense.blogspot.com/2 ... -gods.html

Object to merely posting a URL? Fine. Let's just go to the many passages that have 'god' telling this single tribe to destroy other tribes that get in its way; assuring them that 'god' has given them THIS land; that 'god' made a deal with Abraham exclusively for one single tribe: Abraham's descendants. This is not controversial. The 'god' of the OT plainly, unashamedly declares he is a tribal God, according to the authors of the OT.

You are incorrect, and while you may be happy to 'accept as a given' the things which you find convenient or emotionally compelling, I am not. The Tanakh clearly and repeatedly portrays its deity not only as 'a' universal god, ....

Here is where you begin to go wrong, and are not just wrong, but colossally 'incorrect:'
Obviously the Tanakh TRIES to paint its 'god' as a universal one. ALL cultures see themselves as THE culture or the leading culture that all others must bow to. This is classic ethnocentrism. I thought belief in the absence of such ethnocentrism was gone, if not in the 21st Century, than long before.

It is the height of condescension for the cultures that wrote the Bible to insist that their god is THE god and that all others should believe in their god. Thus they claim and apparently to you have sold you on, this absurd proposition by simply making the claim. All the while the evidence in the Tanakh and the NT is just the opposite. In addition to the genocide proudly documented there, we have numerous other examples such as Elijah challenging the prophets of Baal.
In the NT we have Paul declaring the Jews have a priority over Gentiles as 'the chosen people of God. "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

This chauvinist message is consistent throughout the 'Bible.'
In Genesis 12, God chooses Abraham and his descendants out of all the peoples of the world. Nehemiah 9:7, "God . . . chose Abram, and brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees." Then Deuteronomy 14:2 says about the whole Jewish people, "The LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." Amos 3:2 says, "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth." And in Romans 11:28-29, Paul says, "From the standpoint of the gospel they [the Jews] are enemies for your sake [you Gentiles], but from the standpoint of [election, or] God's choice, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers...." Yes, for the sake of the Hebrew fathers.

Even Jesus and 'Paul' cannot entirely rid themselves from this culture of he 'chosen,' superior people as they try to make their god appeal to all.

[Mithrae]

You are incorrect, and while you may be happy to 'accept as a given' the things which you find convenient or emotionally compelling, I am not. The Tanakh clearly and repeatedly portrays its deity not only as 'a' universal god, ....

Here is where you begin to go wrong, and are not just wrong, but colossally 'incorrect:'
Obviously the Tanakh TRIES to paint its 'god' as a universal one. ALL cultures see themselves as THE culture or the leading culture that all others must bow to. This is classic ethnocentrism. I thought belief in the absence of such ethnocentrism was gone, if not in the 21st Century, than long before.

It is the height of condescension for the cultures that wrote the Bible to insist that their god is THE god and that all others should believe in their god. Thus they claim and apparently to you have sold you on, this absurd proposition by simply making the claim.

Your question was about the God of Moses, Abraham and the Old Testament, the god believed in by those people. I have showed you what they believed, and it was a universal God... but now you're suddenly changing gear trying to talk about a god as imagined by Danmark rather than the one portrayed in the Tanakh. Why did you even bother pretending to raise this as a question for debate, if all along your intention was simply to shake your head and say "Nuh uh, he was a tribal god, you so silly!"

All the while the evidence in the Tanakh and the NT is just the opposite. In addition to the genocide proudly documented there, we have numerous other examples such as Elijah challenging the prophets of Baal.
In the NT we have Paul declaring the Jews have a priority over Gentiles as 'the chosen people of God. "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

This chauvinist message is consistent throughout the 'Bible.'

And thus the other suggestion of your opening post - that there is some irreconcilable distinction between the old and new - is also evidently false, as I pointed out all the way back in post #5.