How to distinguish between myth and miracle?

[marco]

We read in: 1 Kings 17:16
"For the jar of flour was not used up and the jug of oil did not run dry, in keeping with the word of the LORD spoken by Elijah. "

We have a similar story from Ovid about Philemon and Baucis, an old couple, visited by the gods Mercury and Jupiter. Baucis noticed that the pitcher of wine kept filling itself miraculously. The couple were led to a mountain and the city of wicked people was destroyed by the gods.
Two angels visited Lot's family and the extremely pious Lot offered his own daughters to be abused by the mob, so as to keep the angels safe. The city was similarly destroyed for its wickedness.

The explanation of salt sea water is that a magical grinder churned out salt and nobody knew how to stop it. So it goes on grinding salt, ego the salt seas.

Deucalion and Pyrrha were visited by two gods and taken away before the earth was flooded. Stones were turned into people to repopulate the Earth. Noah was told to build the Titanic with some bits of wood, which he did. The Earth was repopulated in a less miraculous way.

We smile at one set and revere the other. Why?

We can tell from the far-fetched accounts that the stories are fiction - but somehow we believe the Bible accounts. Why?

Are there distinguishing features between Bible miracles and myths?

[paarsurrey1]

We read in: 1 Kings 17:16
"For the jar of flour was not used up and the jug of oil did not run dry, in keeping with the word of the LORD spoken by Elijah. "

We have a similar story from Ovid about Philemon and Baucis, an old couple, visited by the gods Mercury and Jupiter. Baucis noticed that the pitcher of wine kept filling itself miraculously. The couple were led to a mountain and the city of wicked people was destroyed by the gods.
Two angels visited Lot's family and the extremely pious Lot offered his own daughters to be abused by the mob, so as to keep the angels safe. The city was similarly destroyed for its wickedness.

The explanation of salt sea water is that a magical grinder churned out salt and nobody knew how to stop it. So it goes on grinding salt, ego the salt seas.

Deucalion and Pyrrha were visited by two gods and taken away before the earth was flooded. Stones were turned into people to repopulate the Earth. Noah was told to build the Titanic with some bits of wood, which he did. The Earth was repopulated in a less miraculous way.

We smile at one set and revere the other. Why?

We can tell from the far-fetched accounts that the stories are fiction - but somehow we believe the Bible accounts. Why?

Are there distinguishing features between Bible miracles and myths?

One may like to read "What are Miracles? ":

Miracles are not seen in the truthful Religion as unnatural occurrences, but as
natural phenomena that are concealed from human knowledge at
a certain period of time.
Page-7
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/C ... ourney.pdf
Regards

[marco]

Miracles are not seen in the truthful Religion as unnatural occurrences, but as
natural phenomena that are concealed from human knowledge at
a certain period of time.

I'm not sure what "truthful religion" means. Christians and Jews would say they have the "truthful religion."

It is not possible to regard miracles as "natural phenomena" since they are NOT natural, being without possible explanation except through unnatural agencies. The question I posed was: how do you distinguish between turning stones into people and making everlasting food stores? You would regard them both as natural, which makes life a daily surprise.

I would say we should disregard accounts of miracles unless we have absolutely iron-clad proof that a wonder took place. I can't see that happening. And since miracles are usually located in the misty past, where men could live to several centuries, there's not much we can do to search for proof. We just close our eyes and believe, blindly.

[Mithrae]

It is not possible to regard miracles as "natural phenomena" since they are NOT natural, being without possible explanation except through unnatural agencies.

Like fishermen catching a shoal of fish when advised to give it one last try?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

How to distinguish between myth and miracle?

A Myth is defined as a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

Miracle: an unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god because it does not follow the usual laws of nature
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... sh/miracle

So looking at the definitions above, the only difference seems to be that a myth may have a "determinable basis of fact"; wheras a "miracle" can be an isolated event which cannot be proven through the normal prosess of an examination of the natural world. (ie its a supernatural event).

If I hadn't looks it up, I would have said off the top of my head that a myth didn't happen, or at least all the elements did not happen as recounted (ie its a story or a legend) and is generally accepted to be fictional even by those that hold to the subsequent "traditions", while a miracle would by defintion be supernatural (ie an event that defys all known the laws of nature) and is believed to have been an actual event. Which is why the question "The Resurrection of Christ: Miracle or Myth?" would not be redundent.




JW



Further Reading: Are Miracles Really Possible? Three Common Objections
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012562

RELATED POSTS

Extra ordinary evidence?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 870#330870

Analysis of a miracle: Assessing miraculous claims
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 409#878409

Why did Jesus perform miracles?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 621#860621

Miracles and Faith: Why did Peter start to sink?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 301#880301

Myth or Miracle? Is there a difference?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 322#886322

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

Hmm...regarding the definition for miracle that you quoted JW...the wording makes it seem as if its almost beyond doubt that there WAS an event of some sort, just that this event is thought to have been caused by a god (i.e., a god of the gaps).
How do we know that this event actually happened at all?

If I hadn't looks it up, I would have said off the top of my head that a myth didn't happen, or at least all the elements did not happen (ie its a story or a legend) would be the story built around and event which may or may not be miraculouse in nature

This is not incorrect. Myths sometimes do have a kernel of truth: it's almost beyond doubt that there were Roman emperors, and then later, myths and legends sprang up about how these emperors were gods.

JW, I'd like to issue you a challenge. Pretend that you with your knowledge of science from today's modern world are somehow transported back in time to the time and place of Jesus. You do not retain knowledge of your religion (this is so that you do not have preconceptions).
Two groups say that their respective leader has performed a miracle, and not only that, but that this miracle somehow proves that their leader is connected to God in some way (precise wording doesn't matter here), and that the other leader is not, he's false. So you'd be faced with a situation of two mutually exclusive supposedly miraculous leaders.
How do you determine which of the two leaders (if either of them, remember it's possible that neither of them did a miracle) did a miracle? What is your methodology?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 6 by rikuoamero]

Yes, Merriams has a good definition of myth

Definition of myth

1 a :a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon creation myths
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth

As for analysis, see my RELATED POSTS above,

JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 6 by rikuoamero]

Yes, Merriams has a good definition of myth

Definition of myth

1 a :a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon creation myths
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth

As for analysis, see my RELATED POSTS above,

JW

So are you going to take a crack at my challenge or not? I've read the posts, none of them say how you would go about determining which of two leaders did a miracle.

Also, the link you give for "Myth or Miracle" only goes back to the very post that it is in.

Also, why is it you changed your supposedly previous definition of myth to include "generally accepted to be fictional even by those that hold to the subsequent "traditions""? Unless I'm mistaken, Greeks who prayed to, and gave sacrifice (in one form or another) to their heroes and Gods tended to believe their heroes and Gods existed, and that the stories about them were true - why pray to Athena for the wisdom to lead an army into battle if one doesn't believe Athena is actually real?

[marco]

It is not possible to regard miracles as "natural phenomena" since they are NOT natural, being without possible explanation except through unnatural agencies.

Like fishermen catching a shoal of fish when advised to give it one last try?

Yes, this is a good example of reading the miraculous into the natural. People catch a lot of fish - so what? But people catch a lot of fish after being unsuccessful, and Jesus urging try again.... miraculous! In fact it is at best an example of one of those coincidences that make us raise an eyebrow. The other night I was writing a mathematical term and it appeared simultaneously on TV in a quiz. Next night I was writing about Noah here and again, at that moment, came a question on TV about the type of wood used to build the Ark.

I didn't register this as a miracle but perhaps I should have.

P.S.


Well this is strange! I turned to the TV just now and a person says: "I need a miracle."

Is God perhaps playing games with poor Marco?

[ttruscott]

We can tell from the far-fetched accounts that the stories are fiction - but somehow we believe the Bible accounts. Why?

Are there distinguishing features between Bible miracles and myths?

ImCo,
The main distinguishing feature is in the people, not the stories themselves. They are separated by their faith in YHWH in a world of spiritual warfare and oppression in which reframing the Bible stories as myths told by a various pagan people is just one weapon in the arsenal to attack the faith of GOD's sinful people to keep the judgement postponed and their time one earth extended.