Example of Creation or Design

[rikuoamero]

In the 'Ask a Group' subforum, the following question was posed to creationists and/or intelligent design advocates.

Creationists and proponents of Intelligent Design are often critical of the theory of evolution. But their criticism leaves their opponents with the feeling that they don't actually understand evolution.

Question for Creationists and proponents of Intelligent Design: can you explain what is meant by evolution?

User 2timothy316 has gotten into a discussion with me, and in one of his most recent responses to me, where he opined

Because creation/intelligent can be observed

I asked for an example

Where? When? Can you show me a creature being designed (not by humans) and show me the designer?

So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

[2timothy316]

So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

So let me get this straight. I can give any example of intelligent design as long as it is 'not by humans.'

Easy.

A bird's egg.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

Now a question to the OP.

Give examples of non-designed of lifeforms.

[rikuoamero]

Well, the OP was not quite clear as to the intended debate. Many people throw abiogenesis and evolution together so it seemed me the OP was doing the same.

This is something I see happening all the time from the creationist/ID crowd. It is something I saw from you. If you go back to the thread in the 'Ask a Group' subforum, your first reply on the thread said (Post 5) and I quote

Evolution, or the changes between an animal with certain traits to an animal with different traits is not the problem with evolution. The problem is that all of this started by accident without evidence of the accident. There is no experiment that has ever succeeded in duplicating this accident


As in, according to yourself, there is a problem with evolution, a problem of how 'all of this started by accident' and what you describe here is actually to do with abiogenesis. You took a problem with abiogenesis and described it as though it applied to evolution.

Which is NOT what the OP was asking for, but if I could hazard a guess, was what the OP expected to see.

Evolution is still incompatible with intelligent design.

Wrong. It is possible for computer programmers, or geneticists, to start with a culture, a population of organisms, with selected traits that they desire and then just let the population live and evolve on their own.

The main components to evolution is that simple life evolve into more complex life.

Pretty much, yes.

Like a cell through numerous random accidental changes,

Not random and not accidental. It's not an either/or situation, of design/random.

somehow, these cells turn into a much more complex organism.

Which they do. You are yourself an example of such. You were once a zygote and now look at you! You're much more complex than that.

That if this does happen (which there is nothing in the fossil record of cells doing this)

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/bacteriafr.html

You were saying?

evolution says its random and accidental.

Nope. Do you understand what random means? What the world would actually look like if chemistry and biology WERE random?

Whats more that all life came from a single source. (Currently I think that hyrothermic vents are current suggested starting place).

So you have a hypothesis regarding abiogenesis, you don't mention a designer or God being involved...and yet in the original thread, you were too quick to promote design and reject evolution for problems that it has nothing to do with.

Lets pretend that chart is right and correct. To say all that happened by trial and error with out intelligent design is like saying that very jpeg was made by accident.

Do you want to know why I agree with this statement?

[rikuoamero]

So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

So let me get this straight. I can give any example of intelligent design as long as it is 'not by humans.'

Easy.

A bird's egg.

Yes, pretty much. Now...this bird's egg. How do you know it was designed? Who or what is the designer?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

Now a question to the OP.

Give examples of non-designed of lifeforms.

No. This thread is to ask for evidence of designed life forms. We are going to discuss that.

[2timothy316]

evolution says its random and accidental.

Nope. Do you understand what random means? What the world would actually look like if chemistry and biology WERE random?

So these people at Berkeley have it wrong?

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... tations_07

Mutations are random

Mutations can be beneficial, neutral, or harmful for the organism, but mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." Factors in the environment may influence the rate of mutation but are not generally thought to influence the direction of mutation. For example, exposure to harmful chemicals may increase the mutation rate, but will not cause more mutations that make the organism resistant to those chemicals. In this respect, mutations are random — whether a particular mutation happens or not is unrelated to how useful that mutation would be.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 6 by rikuoamero]

It was worth a try. I kind of knew you wouldn't accept the challenge.

[2timothy316]

So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

So let me get this straight. I can give any example of intelligent design as long as it is 'not by humans.'

Easy.

A bird's egg.

Yes, pretty much. Now...this bird's egg. How do you know it was designed? Who or what is the designer?

Birds show intelligence that they have to mate to make an another bird. Really all birds do. I have never heard of a species that just kept different body parts into other body parts and accidentally make another bird. Instinct is a type of intelligence.

Instinct: "a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason."

Perhaps you can show an example of bird that didn't come from some form of intelligence? (Gotta keep asking you know.)

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by rikuoamero]

Design is that which displays intelligence, forethought and purpose. For example a key and a lock. A lock is only a lock if its working component receive a key, a key has no purpose without the lock; in orer to exist as such respectively they would have had at one point to be developing in accord with a projected future which requires intelligence.

So a lump of metal cannot say: "Well, you see that door over there, If I make myself a long metal object, with various projecting parts, one day the door will develop a hole with various mechanical devices inside and I will be able to activate that so that the door cannot be opened without me!". Only intellience can envision a future reality that doesn't yet exist and manipulate elements in advance for the eventuality. This is why if we find a key and a lock we do not presume there was an explosion in a metal factory and then someone waited a long long (long) l o n g time and the key and lock "evolved".



Thinking people see design all around us in the physical universe. One example is the human brain.

[youtube][/youtube]
https://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat ... tCMSLang=E

Rajesh Kalaria: A Brain Researcher Explains His Faith
https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/Origin ... 04_3_VIDEO