Shunning

[Elijah John]

Which groups and/or denominations practice "shunning"?

What other names mean the same thing? (disfellowship-ing etc.)

When can shunning be justified, if ever? Why?

[tam]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION #1: How can biblical shunning be considered a loving neighbourly act?

The indescriminate condoning of all acts is not only unloving and unchristian but dangerous.

That is not an answer to the question. Because it is not one extreme or the other. "You must shun - cut someone off completely - or else you are indiscriminately condoning all acts."

A person could very simply STATE that the act is not condoned, unloving, dishonest, in opposition to all that Christ taught, etc. Show the person their error from Christ's word and example; warn the brother. Or if the sin is against you, follow the model Christ set: take the issue to your brother directly; if he does not listen, bring a couple of witnesses with you to your brother; if he still does not listen, bring it to the church - the people. If he still does not listen then treat him as a gentile or tax collector. That still does not mean to SHUN the person; because that is not how Christ treated such people or taught us to treat such people.


**


Christ did not shun anyone; and He did not teach His followers to shun anyone. He did in fact say that His followers would BE shunned; thrown out of synogagues (today, churches, kingdom halls, etc). So those organizations that practice this are actually doing what Christ said would be done TO His followers; and sacrifice is being offered instead of mercy. (Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice!)

They use Paul's words (words spoken before Paul learned to set aside his ways as a Pharisee and do what was right and what Christ actually taught: do NOT judge). So they use Paul's words in one of his earliest letters (words that he changed soon afterward) to justify their actions. But they do not (cannot) use Christ's words OR example to justify shunning, because there are no words or example from Christ, where He shunned anyone or advocated it. But Christ is the one who is supposed to be their leader, yes?


And people ARE shunned for no longer believing the WTS/GB to be from Christ; unless they keep that knowledge to themselves. But where would the love for Christ and for their fellow man be in that? To remain silent and hide their faith and their love, from those who may be sincerely seeking Christ, but who have been misled by a religion, by men? Aren't they just doing what they have been taught to do? Bearing witness to Christ, the Truth? Trying to help those who have been misled?

For that, and for exercising their faith in Christ, they are labeled apostate (even if they do not say anything that is opposed to Christ), df'd and shunned.


I'm SURE that is not unique to the WTS. Mormons do it; Scientologists do it; I guess the Amish do it, and I'm sure there are other high controlled religions/organizations out there that do it as well.


Ex-communication/shunning/disfellowshipping didn't start with the Catholics though. The Jews did it before them. And Paul was a Pharisee. He had some baggage leftover from his time in that profession; though he eventually learned better from Christ. NOT to judge.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

... it is not one extreme or the other. "You must shun - cut someone off completely - or else you are indiscriminately condoning all acts."

QUESTION #4: Are sanctions imposed instead of needed sympathy and help?

Absolutely not; Church authorities are encouraged not to "stick uncharitably to the letter of the law" but to take into account circumstances and attitude when judging. There is no offense that automatically results in being expulsed and certainly not if what that person really needs is sympathy and help. Someone that slips into wrongdoing but is regretful and open to be helped will be extended all the love and support they need to correct their behavior. Disfellowshipping is a measure reserved ONLY for those that do not want to change, are quite happy with their chosen mode of life and/or promote such behaviors within the community.

[JehovahsWitness]

If he still does not listen then treat him as a gentile or tax collector.

What did Jesus mean by these words?

[JehovahsWitness]

They use Paul's words (words spoken before Paul learned to set aside his ways as a Pharisee and do what was right and what Christ actually taught: do NOT judge). So they use Paul's words in one of his earliest letters (words that he changed soon afterward) to justify their actions.

Line ONE: Jehovah's Witnesses accept the entire bible canon 66 as inspired of God and do not reject the writings of Paul.

Line TWO: Feel free to reject selected letters or if you so please but we accept the entire bible as being from God.






JW

[JehovahsWitness]

And people ARE shunned for no longer believing the WTS/GB to be from Christ; unless they keep that knowledge to themselves. But where would the love for Christ and for their fellow man be in that?

People are certainly free to express their love of Jehovah's Witnesses by attempting to convince that their organization does not have God's approval. Naturally if they sincerely believe this to be true they themselves will withdraw their membership first (obviously they would not want to be part of the very organization they are trying to convince people to leave). Should they neglect to to perform the formatlity of handing in their notice, it would only be loving to do this for them.

[marco]

All the above questions highlight a basic principle, the existence and exercise of just laws protect the individual members of a society

This is a poor attempt at justification by reducing those who dissent to the status of abusers or murderers. There is no parallel.

QUESTION #2: Did Jesus condone all sins and advocate the removal of all religious law?

No he did not!

Another poor attempt at justification. First of all it is presumptuous to place oneself in the position of Jesus, judging others as though one were God's emissary. But secondly, Jesus did in fact look the other way when a sinner was brought. Jesus was gentle to the woman taken in adultery. It would seem JWs would shun her. Explain that inconsistency.

QUESTION #3: Does the existence of church authoritized sanctions, even "expulsions" contradict the sentiments of the "Sermon on the mount" or the "Good Samaritan"?

No.

The very fact that one has to ask this question tells us everything. There is an obvious contradiction between shunning and treating people with respect and kindness. Reducing them all, for whatever reason they have been shunned, as something akin to murderers is itself cruel.

QUESTION #4: Are sanctions imposed instead of needed sympathy and help?

Absolutely not;

Kicking someone and then tending to the wounds one has inflicted is hardly a generous action. Common sense tells us that if someone needs help, they should be given it. The uncharitable act occurred at the outset, the shunning. Later acts of compassion, possibly because a person is dying, hardly makes up for the sin.

QUESTION #5: Does bibilcal shunning impose the "casting out a family member"?

Yes, it may do.

Of course it does. And this is the unkindest cut of all. People who would do this are as far removed from Christ's love as one can possibly get. What is the point of Christ saying: Matthew 18:22: "Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven" when it is blatantly ignored?

]NOTE: A Christian's responsibility to support aged parent and to love and train minor children is not overrideen if one of them has been "shunned" or disfellowshipped.

I read this with revulsion. For a parent or a child being shunned is obviously against the commandment: "Honour thy father and thy mother". But just at the human decency level it is horrifying that some religion would require its devotees to do such a thing. We are in the 21st century, not the Dark Ages.

So there are plenty of places in Scripture that tell us disfellowshipping is wrong. But if we WANT to make excuses for this horrible practice, we can find them, as has been illustrated.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 11 by tam]

QUESTION Does the fact that the Christian community respects certain moral and organizational standards negate the presence of MERCY?

The bible is quite clear, there are certain behaviors that God finds unacceptable and Christians in a position of responsibility are expected to the best of their ability, to ensure that the congregations are free of such things (compare 1 Cor 6:9-11; 1 Cor 5:13). Does this mean that there is no place for MERCY in the arrangement? Not at all. Only unrepentant wrongdoers are to be "shunned" or disfellowshipped and that only after repeated efforts to reajust the individual in love. Those that sincerely want to correct their wrong behavior are given every opportunity to do so. Are they "kicked first" and then given help? No; firstly the expression "kicked" implies treating someone with contempt and cruelty, that is never to be the case, all counselling should be administered in love. Further common sense tells us that if someone needs help, they should be given it, so of course if and individuaql recognizes the wrong and are looking for help they will not be disfellowshipped at all.



JW





FURTHER READING

Do Jehovah's Witnesses Shun Former Members of Their Religion?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/

How to treat a disfellowshipped person?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102008083

Do Jehovah's Witnesses Break Up Families or Build Them Up?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/families/




SHUNNING POLICY

Why do Jehovahs Witnesses practise shunning?
viewtopic.php?p=1050045#p1050045

Is biblical shunning both scriptural and loving? Questions & Answers
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 71#p895871

When is disfellowshipping/shunning justified?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p895672

Does the Jehovahs Witness church tell their members not to associated disfellowshipped people?
viewtopic.php?p=1068987#p1068987

Are shunned individuals still allowed to attend church services?
viewtopic.php?p=1077543#p1077543

How do Jehovah's Witnesses treat disfellowshipped CHILDREN?
viewtopic.php?p=1062333#p1062333

Can entire congregation unilaterally "unofficially" shun a member ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066088#p1066088

SHUNNING MOTIVES

Do Jehovahs Witnesses shun former members?
viewtopic.php?p=1060595#p1060595

Are people disfellowshipped for internet debating?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 43#p895843

Do JWs disfellowship for watching the wrong movies or or listening to the wrong music?
viewtopic.php?p=1065008#p1065008

Can a Jehovah's Witness join another church without being disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066416#p1066416

MARRIAGE

Do Jehovahs Witnesses break up marriages?
viewtopic.php?p=1032157#p1032157

How are Jehovahs Witnesses taught to treat marriage partners that do not agree with their religion?
viewtopic.php?p=1032167#p1032167

Do JWs see shunning /disfellowshiping as grounds for DIVORCE?
viewtopic.php?p=1032193#p1032193

Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe the biblical directive to cut off all contact with an APOSTATE applies to marriage mates? [this post]

viewtopic.php?p=1032256#p1032256

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY

[tam]

[Replying to post 16 by marco]

I read this with revulsion. For a parent or a child being shunned is obviously against the commandment: "Honour thy father and thy mother". But just at the human decency level it is horrifying that some religion would require its devotees to do such a thing. We are in the 21st century, not the Dark Ages.

And this one, from one of my favorite passages (Isaiah 58) in the OT:

Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Isaiah 58:7


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

[Replying to post 17 by JehovahsWitness]

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Shun Former Members of Their Religion?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/

Please note the article asks one question, and then answers a different question. From the article:

Those who were baptized as Jehovah’s Witnesses but no longer preach to others, perhaps even drifting away from association with fellow believers, are not shunned. In fact, we reach out to them and try to rekindle their spiritual interest.

These are not former members being described. These are inactive and perhaps fading members; but officially they are still members of the organization. As such, there is no requirement for them to be shunned.

In accordance with what you stated earlier, if they were to state openly that the JW organization was not from Christ (for example)... while perhaps failing to officially withdraw from the organization (according to the rules of that organization which would no longer apply to them), then the organization would "lovingly" do that for them.

Then they would be shunned.



Just 'keepin' it real'.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

... it is not one extreme or the other. "You must shun - cut someone off completely - or else you are indiscriminately condoning all acts."

QUESTION #4: Are sanctions imposed instead of needed sympathy and help?

Absolutely not; Church authorities are encouraged not to "stick uncharitably to the letter of the law" but to take into account circumstances and attitude when judging.

Do not judge, or you will be judged. For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. - Christ Jaheshua, from Matthew 7:1,2

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. - Christ, from Luke 6:37


Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? - Christ, from Luke 6:41

When they continued to question Him, He straightened up and said to them, "Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her." - Christ, from John 8:7


That should be enough, right? Christ said don't judge; Christ is the One God said to listen to?

So my Lord asks,

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?


**
And I hate to put Paul's words up when Christ's words should be enough. And it does not matter what Paul said, if Paul is not saying the same thing that Christ said (and taught, in word and in deed). Paul is NOT master, lord, king, teacher. Unfortunately, many people treat him as being so, and for some inexplicable reason, think that he could never have made a mistake.

So I put the following up just to show you (whoever is reading) that Paul DID learn, despite his error at the beginning when he told people TO judge; an error that has misled people who look to PAUL instead of to CHRIST, and an error that threw into disarray, the Corinthian congregation that knew there was a conflict between Paul's words and their Lord's words. Hence, he wrote a third letter to them (even though it is titled 2nd Corinthians), and told the people to embrace the brother he had formerly told them to shun.

In any case, here is Paul LATER, after learning the truth:


Therefore let us stop judging one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. - Paul, Romans 14:13




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

(edited to fix the quote box)