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Elijah John
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:06 pm  JW organization. Reply with quote

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:21 pm
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Elijah John
Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:06 pm
Subject: JW organization.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

JW posted:

Quote:
We do have a website if you would like to further avoid inaccurate statements.


RESPONSE: Perhaps you should consult the https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses.

Which of Elijah John's statements are you saying are incorrect.? (See previous Polonius posts on this thread).

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:47 pm
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Re: JW organization.

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Elijah John wrote:

Could your group be wrong in any matter, any detail of Scriptural interpretation?


Yes, of course. Jehovah's Witnesses are not Catholic Popes, we have never claimed infallibility.


Quote:

"Jehovah's Witnesses freely acknowledge that their undertanding of God's purpose has undergone many adjustments over the years [...] Furthermore, not all adjustments in understanding have come simply, in one step. Because of imperfection, there is at times a tendency to go to one extreme or another before the correct position is discerned." - pj p. 629 par 4, 5

"The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic." - August 15, 1950, page 263.

"The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)" - February 15, 1981, page 19.

"Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." - December 15, 1896, page 306.

" In our zeal to see God’s promises fulfilled, we have on occasion drawn wrong conclusions." - Kingdom Rules chap. 3 p. 37 par 19

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:09 pm
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Re: JW organization.

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JehovahsWitness wrote:

Elijah John wrote:

Could your group be wrong in any matter, any detail of Scriptural interpretation?


Yes, of course. Jehovah's Witnesses are not Catholic Popes, we have never claimed infallibility.


Quote:

"Jehovah's Witnesses freely acknowledge that their undertanding of God's purpose has undergone many adjustments over the years [...] Furthermore, not all adjustments in understanding have come simply, in one step. Because of imperfection, there is at times a tendency to go to one extreme or another before the correct position is discerned." - pj p. 629 par 4, 5

"The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic." - August 15, 1950, page 263.

"The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)" - February 15, 1981, page 19.

"Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." - December 15, 1896, page 306.

" In our zeal to see God’s promises fulfilled, we have on occasion drawn wrong conclusions." - Kingdom Rules chap. 3 p. 37 par 19


A refreshing admission. Could your group be wrong about it's doctrine of Biblical infallibility?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:39 pm
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Re: JW organization.

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Elijah John wrote:
Do you claim that your organization has a monopoly on the Truth?

Quote:

TRUTH has been defined as:

1 sincerity in action, character, and utterance
2 the body of real things, events, and facts
3 fidelity to an original or to a standard


By none of the above definitions do Jehovah's Witnesses claim to have {quote} "a monopoly on the Truth?" {end quote}. Indeed in absolute terms the only one that could claim to be in possession of all "facts" and everything that is "real" [2] would be Almighty God and even He generously shares things He knows with others. The organization of Jehovah's Witnesses has never claimed to be infallible or to have exclusive possession of every fact or religious truth in existence.

# What then do Jehovah's Witnesses mean when they say the have "The Truth" or are "in" The Truth?

In religious circles "The Truth" takes on a different, more extended meaning than in most dictionaries. For Jehovah's Witnesses "The Truth" embraces the entire body of Christian teachings as now found in God’s written Word - the Bible (Compare John 8:32; 2 Timothy 2:15; Ephesians 1:13). Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe the bible has been given only to them or that they hold any monopoly on it, it is, we believe, God's gift to mankind. Still it is true to say, not every human on earth values the bible or The Truth therein for the extraordinary treasure it is and very few "walk in the truth" ie live lives conforming to bible standards. Such ones cannot be spoken of as "having" or "being in" The Truth.

# So, do Jehovah's Witnesses believe one has to be part of their organization to be "in the truth" as above explained?

Yes; at the present time, we believe this is God's present arrangement through which He teaches, protects and guides those that love him. Jehovah hasn't always had an earthly organization, the modern day organization has been in existence for about 100 years. Prior to that, while we believe God has always had sincere, even spirit anointed followers of Christ, walking in the way of bible teachings to the best of their knoweledge and ability at the time, such one were not gathered into a visible, identifiable organization because it was not God's time to have such a thing. Today we believe God is gathering sincere honest hearted people looking for spiritual instruction together and the only religion that has His approval today is that of Jehovah's Witnesses.

source: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/true-religion/


CONCLUSION: Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe we have the "monopoly on truth" in the sense that nobody outside our organization has an accurate understanding of any truths be those religious or secular. We do however believe our organization is the only religion one God is presently using to teach people the body of truths as found in the bible and fulfill His will for earths inhabitants at this present time.

Further reading: Are You Convinced That You Have the Truth? Why?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/ws20140915/jehovahs-witnesses-convi...

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:38 pm
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Elijah John wrote:
A refreshing admission. Could your group be wrong about it's doctrine of Biblical infallibility?


Anything is possible, except for God to be wrong or his word to prove untrue. That there no God is impossible. That God's word will ever prove to be untrue under any circumstance whatsoever, is absolutely impossible. That Jehovah's Witnesses understanding of that word might be wrong, yes, that is of course possible.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:15 pm
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Re: JW organization.

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JehovahsWitness wrote:

Elijah John wrote:
A refreshing admission. Could your group be wrong about it's doctrine of Biblical infallibility?


Anything is possible, except for God to be wrong or his word to prove untrue. That there no God is impossible. That God's word will ever prove to be untrue under any circumstance whatsoever, is absolutely impossible. That Jehovah's Witnesses understanding of that word might be wrong, yes, that is of course possible.


How do JWs know for sure that God's word is confined to the Canon as we have it now?

How 'bout that slave-beating verse? Is that "God's Word" as well?

How 'bout the fact that JWs and Protestants have different Canons then do Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox?

Why are they wrong and you right?

Also, believing in God as a non-negotiable should not be conflated with Bible infallibility, as it seems you are doing.

Also, Muslims claim that their Qur'an is the "Word of God" why are they wrong and you right?

They sometimes call their sacred Sriptures the "Last Testament". How are they wrong?

And Jews believe their Canon is complete without the New Testament.

Why are they wrong? Notice Jesus never added to his Hebrew Bible, what gave Paul the right?

Human beings who compiled the NT, that's who.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:42 pm
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Elijah John wrote:

How do JWs know for sure that God's word is confined to the Canon as we have it now?
How 'bout the fact that JWs and Protestants have different Canons then do Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox?


I have written extensively on the development of the bible canon. You might like to consult my thread here as to why we can have confidence in the present 66 book bible canon.

I have also earlier answered your question as to why we should believe God would protect the process by which the inspired books were compiled and transmitted to our present day.

Elijah John wrote:
Human beings who compiled the NT, that's who.


I have also written posts explaining why the fact that God has evidently used human beings for the above does not negate the perfection of the result.

The human "pens" in the hand of the Almighty #1
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=833718#833718

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:09 am
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Elijah John wrote:
And Jews believe their Canon is complete without the New Testament. Why are they wrong?


They (the Jews) are wrong for the same reason they as a people were wrong to reject Jesus as the Messiah, because their own scripture pointed to both.

That there would be further developments in the revelation of God's purpose to the Jews after the close of the Hebrew canon was explicitly stated through the Prophet Jeremiah who recorded God's purpose to eventually have "a new covenant" which would be different from the one that had been in operation for the 1,500 years prior to the first century. Their own bible contained the promise of another Great Prophet "like [Moses]", and a Prophet by definition reveals things about God (compare Jer 31:31; Deut 18:18). They should therefore have been expecting more revelation and if Moses transmitted divinely inspired written scripture, another prophet like him, would surely have authority to initiate the same.


List of some of the main Messianic Prophecies and additional reading
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=808445#808445


Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:39 am; edited 3 times in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:19 am
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JehovahsWitness wrote:

Elijah John wrote:
And Jews believe their Canon is complete without the New Testament. Why are they wrong?


They (the Jews) are wrong for the same reason they as a people were wrong to reject Jesus as the Messiah, because their own scripture pointed to further developments and explicitly stated that God would establishe "a new covenant" which would be different from the one that had been in operation for the 1,500 years prior to the first century. Their own bible contained the promise of another Great Prophet like Moses, and a Prophet by definition reveals things.


How do you know that prophet is not Mohammad? Muslims point to that verse to give their Prophet validity.

Mohammad has more in common with Moses than does Jesus.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:25 am
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[Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]

The post you point to only really demonstrates the antiquity of the Canon, not it's validity as the "Word of God".

It was still compiled by human beings. The fact that the Protestant canon has fewer books perhaps makes it more likely that it better represents the "Word of God" but that in itself is no-guarantee that any of those books are the infallible Word of God.

Jefferson omitted Paul's letters entirely, why was he wrong? How do you know he was less Divinely inspired and guided than Paul?

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