Silent no More: The Rise of the New Atheists

[Jagella]

I read some very good news in the April 2018 Scientific American. Michael Shermer writes in his Skeptic column "that 23 percent of all Americans have forsaken religion all together." The 23 percent figure is based on a 2013 Harris Poll and corroborated by a 2015 Pew Research Center poll. It is a "dramatic increase" from 2007 when only 16 percent of polled Americans said they were affiliated with no religion.

Why these poll results are so important to me is that the real good news is that America has a chance to lead the world with a new sense of social responsibility. We atheists can succeed where religionists have failed. As religion and superstition decline; science, critical thinking, and true morality can increase. We can level the playing field for all Americans granting everybody a chance to make something out of themselves. Let's leave religion and all its "bad fruit" behind forever!

Our efforts to turn the tables on Christianity appear to be working. Do you agree?

[AgnosticBoy]

I read some very good news in the April 2018 Scientific American. Michael Shermer writes in his Skeptic column "that 23 percent of all Americans have forsaken religion all together." The 23 percent figure is based on a 2013 Harris Poll and corroborated by a 2015 Pew Research Center poll. It is a "dramatic increase" from 2007 when only 16 percent of polled Americans said they were affiliated with no religion.

Why these poll results are so important to me is that the real good news is that America has a chance to lead the world with a new sense of social responsibility. We atheists can succeed where religionists have failed. As religion and superstition decline; science, critical thinking, and true morality can increase. We can level the playing field for all Americans granting everybody a chance to make something out of themselves. Let's leave religion and all its "bad fruit" behind forever!

Our efforts to turn the tables on Christianity appear to be working. Do you agree?

Why is growth satisfying to you? It's possible for a minority opinion to be correct just as much as it's possible for the majority to be correct - as in have the correct or most probable view of reality.

Do you agree or are you just looking for power and influence? If your focus is just on numbers instead of being about WHY people are leaving then I'd say it seems that the power and influence is your focus.

Personally, I want a society with split opinions. I don't want any one side being dominant unless we know with absolute certainty. Having one side holding most of the power (in an intellectual arena) tends to take away the incentive to think/question and instead we find those who follow the crowd.

[AgnosticBoy]

Your bad blood towards Christianity is a bit disconcerting. Kinda like the animosity Christians had towards non-Christians in the middle ages. I guess history repeats itself.

I personally don't want to see all religions drop or cease to exist. I would just like their power and influence to decrease to a degree. On the flip side, increasing atheism to the point that it dominates the culture would be bad, in my view.

[historia]

I would like to see this poll

It might be useful to include links to all the sources here.

Here is the article cited in the OP:

• Michael Shermer, "The Number of Americans with No Religious Affiliation Is Rising," Scientific American, April 2018.

In that article, Shermer cites two polls:

• Harris Poll, Americans Belief in God, Miracles and Heaven Declines (2013)
  
  Pew Research Center, Religious Landscape Study (2015)

He also cites this journal article:

• Will Gervais & Maxine Najle, "How Many Atheists Are There?" Social Psychological and Personality Science vol. 9 iss. 1 (2018), pgs. 3-10.

The journal article requires a subscription. I've read it, and find Shermer's brief summary to be adequate.

because "leaving religion" does NOT mean becoming an atheist.

Indeed, Shermer himself notes this in the article.

The Pew Forum study, I think, provides the clearest data on this point. Among those who are religiously un-affiliated, roughly a third describe themselves as atheist or agnostic, while another third consider themselves "nothing in particular" with religion being un-important to them, while the remaining third are also "nothing in particular" but do consider religion to be important.

Of course, the opposite can also be true: There may be people who are religiously affiliated who do not believe in God. These are, after all, not mutually exclusive concepts.

The polls suggest that about 12% of the U.S. population doesn't believe in God. The Gervais and Najle article estimates that number is closer to 26%. That actually corresponds with the polls when you combine those who say they don't believe in God with those who are not sure. See, in particular, the Harris poll.

The Jehovah's Witness religion continues in it historic growth unabaited.

I'd actually be interested in your perspective on some of the findings in the Pew report.

I've always assumed that Jehovah's Witnesses had a negative view towards government. But the polls suggest that American Jehovah's Witnesses tend to be in favor of bigger government and government aid to the poor. Are my assumptions just off here?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 23 by historia]

The important thing is that people aren't being exposed to weekly indoctrination, and will be allowed to think freely, without pressure.

Instead of "Jesus dies for your sins," they will see that Jesus took a 3 day weekend for your sins.
They'll ask who that bad weekend was a sacrifice to, and, for what again?
They'll notice that Jesus wasn't the proper lineage to be the saviour, not being the son of Joseph.
They'll see that Jesus essentially spat on the commandments -
They'll see that graven images of Jesus are everywhere.
They'll see that by stopping the stoning of "the adulteress," he dishonored the Commandment against adultery.
They'll see that by advocating paying the god Caesar his tithes, he was venerating a foreign theistic system.

I am sure you get the idea.
They'll see that the entire thing was perhaps the most successful political ruse in history, one that survived its creators magnificently.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 21 by AgnosticBoy]

Our efforts to turn the tables on Christianity appear to be working. Do you agree?

Why is growth satisfying to you? It's possible for a minority opinion to be correct just as much as it's possible for the majority to be correct - as in have the correct or most probable view of reality.

Well, it would be nice if you could answer my question, the question for debate.

I don't see the growth of atheism as some kind of validation for it. Basic logic and knowledge is what leads a person to conclude that there are no gods except in myth. What the growth in atheism does appear to show to me at least is that people are finally wising up and seeing religion for what it is.

And you are correct that the minority can still be correct. Note that atheism is still very much the minority in America.

Do you agree or are you just looking for power and influence? If your focus is just on numbers instead of being about WHY people are leaving then I'd say it seems that the power and influence is your focus.

I'll take power and influence any time if I ever get the chance to have any. Surely religion seeks power and influence.

If you get the chance to read Shermer's April 2018 Skeptic column, then you'll see that he does discuss why people are forsaking traditional religion. Much of it has to do with New-Age beliefs. Such beliefs may be more appealing than old-style religion.

Personally, I want a society with split opinions. I don't want any one side being dominant unless we know with absolute certainty. Having one side holding most of the power (in an intellectual arena) tends to take away the incentive to think/question and instead we find those who follow the crowd.

Everybody has a right to their opinion, of course, but I hope that such opinions are based on sound information rather than misinformation. And if there has ever been a greater source of misinformation than religion, then I don't know of it.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 23 by historia]

Thank you for your links and observations historia, as insightful as ever.

I'd actually be interested in your perspective on some of the findings in the Pew report.

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/


BELIEF IN GOD

• I've not much to say, I think the findings are unsurprising given the current attitude towards religion. As I said it seems clear that the numbers of those that are certain or fairly certain there is a God is in fact down from 2014 to 83% from 89% in 2007, not a dramatic drop but a drop nonetheless.
  http://www.pewforum.org/religious-lands ... ef-in-god/
  
  I would point out however that as a Jehovah's Witnesses who speaks to people on the ground as it were, even in the number of people that say they don't believe there is a God in reality with a little prodding a fair proportion of those people will admit they believe there is "something out there" , die hard atheists are extremely rare outside of communist China where the atheist indoctrination is at it strongest. People entirely devoid of all spirituality (by spirituality I mean devoid of any belief in the existence of anything outside of the natural world) are in my experience an oddity.

The Pew Forum study, I think, provides the clearest data on this point. Among those who are religiously un-affiliated, roughly a third describe themselves as atheist or agnostic, while another third consider themselves "nothing in particular" with religion being un-important to them, while the remaining third are also "nothing in particular" but do consider religion to be important.

So about two thirds of people that don't "go to church" still believe in God supporting the fact that "leaving religion" doesn't necessarily equate with "leaving belief"; Indeed many of our most fervent theists on this forum would probably fall into the group of the growing group "nones" (people that have left religion) if polled.

More Americans now say theyre spiritual but not religious"
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... religious/

• As for the general trend away from organised religion, biblically we (JWs) believe the decline in the support for the worlds religious institutions to be a fulfillment of bible prophesy but that's probably discussion for another thread in another subforum.

ANTI-GOD INDOCTRINATION

• The belief in the inevitability of a first cause outside of the natural world is very deeply ingrained in human logic. Richard Dawkins may hesitate to call it "god gene" but he evidently he has no choice but accept that there does seem to be something in human nature that has resulted in all societies in all times believing in some kind of deity. History testifies that it takes a totalitarian regimes with a free hand to indocrinate children from the youngest of ages to suppress the natural birth of some kind of faith and even then, when control is relaxed and generations are allowed access to religious thought, faith floods back as if it were never gone, as was the case in the ex-Soviet union after decades of religious suppression.

LIES DAMN LIES AND STASTICS

• I think we have to recognize the limitations of polls in general and this one in particular, for example the afilliations are self assessed meaning that people identify themselves as Catholics or Jehovah's Witnesses etc, and may well in actuality not qualify as or be members at all. (This may explain in part why up to 8% of claimed JW are polled as only being "fairly certain" rather than "absolutely certain" there is a God, as I would have expected).
  http://www.pewforum.org/religious-lands ... ef-in-god/

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

I've always assumed that Jehovah's Witnesses had a negative view towards government.

Are my assumptions just off here?

Well that would depend on what you mean by "negative". We believe ultimately all governments are part of Satan's system of things and destined to be destroyed. That does not however mean we do not recognise that for the time being they serve a necessary purpose and their existence is beneficial for society as a whole including Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses are not "anti-government" in any way, indeed the bible commands us to obey the authorities and give them due honour. The only time we may find ourselves at heads with governments is when they attempt to encroach on our god given right to freely practise our religion.

The polls suggest that American Jehovah's Witnesses tend to be in favor of bigger government and government aid to the poor.

That would be the expression of each individual's personal view. There is no JWs policy on this and since we don't vote or have lobbyists anyway, those views are without impact on the political scene one way or the other.

• Jehovah's Witnesses believe God's Kingdom is itself a government, and without seeing how the questionnaire was worded I cannot say how I myself would have responded seeing as I am totally in favor of "divine government". I'm not surprised if asked that Jehovah's Witnesses are in favor of "aid to the poor", as helping the disadvantaged is a fundamental principle we hold dear.

JW

[AgnosticBoy]

Why is growth satisfying to you? It's possible for a minority opinion to be correct just as much as it's possible for the majority to be correct - as in have the correct or most probable view of reality.

Well, it would be nice if you could answer my question, the question for debate.

I don't see the growth of atheism as some kind of validation for it. Basic logic and knowledge is what leads a person to conclude that there are no gods except in myth. What the growth in atheism does appear to show to me at least is that people are finally wising up and seeing religion for what it is.

And you are correct that the minority can still be correct. Note that atheism is still very much the minority in America.

Neither your opening post nor the article asked why people are leaving religion. I noticed that the article mentions that people are leaving "religion" but not"spirituality" so I assume that the latter group falls into your category of people leaving for "logic and basic knowledge".

Atheism of the strong variety is certainly not synonymous with logic and basic knowledge. It is based on SOME logic and knowledge, but other parts are not as settled, especially when it comes to philosophy. You assume everyone leaves for the reasons you mentioned. If I recall correctly, I remember some theists setting you straight on some of your inaccurate views on the life of Jesus so clearly your claims of logic and knowledge aren't necessarily logical and knowledge-based even if you believe so.

Do you agree or are you just looking for power and influence? If your focus is just on numbers instead of being about WHY people are leaving then I'd say it seems that the power and influence is your focus.

I'll take power and influence any time if I ever get the chance to have any. Surely religion seeks power and influence.

I would seek power and influence as well but only in relation to what I KNOW is good and/or correct. This isn't established for atheistic claims on all matters.

This is one reason why I refuse to identify myself as an atheist - it's just leaving one faith for another. And yes, many atheists tend to conduct themselves just like an organized faith group. Agnostics, moderate Christians, and moderate atheists see right through these antics from BOTH sides.

Personally, I want a society with split opinions. I don't want any one side being dominant unless we know with absolute certainty. Having one side holding most of the power (in an intellectual arena) tends to take away the incentive to think/question and instead we find those who follow the crowd.

Everybody has a right to their opinion, of course, but I hope that such opinions are based on sound information rather than misinformation. And if there has ever been a greater source of misinformation than religion, then I don't know of it.

Admittedly, it would be hard to gather evidence for my position since there are no examples of leaders who dominated under the mantle of strong atheism/materialism. But I can analogize from what I see in American politics nowadays. It's easier for the extremes of one side to come out when they're dominating. It takes having an opposition to keep them back (and of course the threat of being voted out in the next election). I'm sure such would be the same problems if atheists (of the strong variety - the ANTI-Christian and no gods exists- and religions are all superstition types) suddenly took power. Religion and other alternative groups need to have some power (not as much as it has now) to keep it back from extremes.

[marco]

Our efforts to turn the tables on Christianity appear to be working. Do you agree?

You may be driving Christianity out with pitchforks or sophisticated machinery but you ignore at your peril a less tolerant body of belief, namely Islam. An atheist may well be wisely persuasive, but a dead atheist spreads no good news.

I agree that many are deserting churches that offer ancient answers to modern questions; but Islam seems to be growing, certainly in Europe.

[marco]

Admittedly, it would be hard to gather evidence for my position since there are no examples of leaders who dominated under the mantle of strong atheism/materialism. But I can analogize from what I see in American politics nowadays. It's easier for the extremes of one side to come out when they're dominating. It takes having an opposition to keep them back (and of course the threat of being voted out in the next election). I'm sure such would be the same problems if atheists (of the strong variety - the ANTI-Christian and no gods exists- and religions are all superstition types) suddenly took power. Religion and other alternative groups need to have some power (not as much as it has now) to keep it back from extremes.

I agree with your sentiments about "strong atheism"; I can't see how this position, -that of Dawkins - is reached by logical means. Tolerance is a virtue until it is abused. If all believers were kind Samaritans, belief would be commendable. When believers want to kill non-believers or offer books that advocate eternal torture for those who deny God then condemnation is correct. Extremists of any type are a menace.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 28 by marco]

You may be driving Christianity out with pitchforks or sophisticated machinery but you ignore at your peril a less tolerant body of belief, namely Islam. An atheist may well be wisely persuasive, but a dead atheist spreads no good news.

I don't really ignore Islam, but it obviously doesn't have nearly the influence that Christianity has in this neck of the woods. I hope all religions eventually go extinct, and Christianity and Islam especially.

I agree that many are deserting churches that offer ancient answers to modern questions; but Islam seems to be growing, certainly in Europe.

I've heard that Islam is growing not through conversion of adults but through births.