"Meeting the Lord in the air"

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:06 am

I heard a preacher this morning critiquing the world, (and yes, there are some very real problems in our world, moral and otherwise) and promising that there is hope because the "true believers" in Jesus will soon be raptured up to "meet the Lord in the air". He shouted this in an ecstatic tone of voice, whipping the flock into frenzied applause.

It reminded me of those minor and odd sects that one hears about in the headlines from time to time, what some people may call "cults"?

I think if I had been a visitor to this congregation, (instead of watching it on TV) I would have experienced a little fear. And moreso because in the US, this kind of teaching and preaching is becoming more and more popular, and not confined to the margins.

=Is this kind of preaching and congregation response, an example of what psychologists would call a form of "mob mentality"?

-Why don't mainline Churches, such as the RCC, Orthodox, mainline Protestant, Episcopalian, Anglican etc, churches teach the "Rapture"?

Could it be they put a bit more emphasis on rationality in their approach?

Or are those mainline Churches simply delinquent from "true" Christianity?

And finally, Does this kind of preaching, and this kind of doctrine make the borderline skeptic more or less likely to believe in God?

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Fri May 11, 2018 6:14 pm

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

Just who did it happen to in 1914?

All spirit anointed born again Christians that had died prior to that point.

How about those who were still alive at that point?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri May 11, 2018 7:54 pm

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

Just who did it happen to in 1914?

All spirit anointed born again Christians that had died prior to that point.
How about those who were still alive at that point?

They lived the remainder of their lives on earth just like everyone else but unlike their bretheren, some of whom had spent hundreds or even thousands of years "asleep" in the grave, the spirit anointed born again Christians that die after 1914 (the year Jesus took on his kingly role and gathered his co-rulers to begin ruling with him - an event the bible book of Revelation calls "The first Resurrection"), would upon their death be instantly transformed to spirit beings to take up their position in heaven.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:51

We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye

JW

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Fri May 11, 2018 11:10 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

Just who did it happen to in 1914?

All spirit anointed born again Christians that had died prior to that point.
How about those who were still alive at that point?
They lived the remainder of their lives on earth just like everyone else but unlike their bretheren, some of whom had spent hundreds or even thousands of years "asleep" in the grave, the spirit anointed born again Christians that die after 1914 (the year Jesus took on his kingly role and gathered his co-rulers to begin ruling with him - an event the bible book of Revelation calls "The first Resurrection"), would upon their death be instantly transformed to spirit beings to take up their position in heaven.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:51

We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye

JW

An interesting scenario, but one other than Paul's teaching in the two letters you mentioned.

Believers alive and believers dead are transformed and meet the Lord together, at the last trump.

tam · Post by **tam** » Fri May 11, 2018 11:51 pm

Peace to you,

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

Just who did it happen to in 1914?

All spirit anointed born again Christians that had died prior to that point.
How about those who were still alive at that point?
They lived the remainder of their lives on earth just like everyone else but unlike their bretheren, some of whom had spent hundreds or even thousands of years "asleep" in the grave, the spirit anointed born again Christians that die after 1914 (the year Jesus took on his kingly role and gathered his co-rulers to begin ruling with him - an event the bible book of Revelation calls "The first Resurrection"), would upon their death be instantly transformed to spirit beings to take up their position in heaven.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:51

We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye

JW

The Corinthian verse states the opposite of what you seem to be understanding from it. Paul states that we will NOT all fall asleep... but we will all be changed. Therefore some do not die (we who are alive when Christ returns).

Which is in keeping with the verse from Thessalonians,

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

He returns with those who have fallen asleep in Him (so that they are the first to rise); and then we who are alive and who remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat May 12, 2018 1:33 am

tam wrote: The Corinthian verse states the opposite of what you seem to be understanding from it. Paul states that we will NOT all fall asleep... but we will all be changed.

NOT DIE OR NOT STAY DEAD FOR A PERIOD?

Well you interpret Paul's words "we will not fall asleep" to mean "they will not die", so for you "not fall asleep" means "not die"; we interpret "not fall asleep" to mean not "NOT remain dead for a significant period"... we both understand Paul is saying something will not happen but what?

The problem with your interpretation of "not fall asleep" meaning "not die" is that Paul also explained that " flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". Humans exist in "flesh and blood" meaning humans exist in the physical form and the only way to pass from the physical to the spiritual is ... to die (compare John 12:24). It is only at death that a person is given a "spiritual body", so to interpret "not fall asleep" to mean "not die" contradicts Paul's entire argument about what the resurrection is and how it happens (1 Corininthians 15:50).

LAZARUS: DEAD FOUR DAYS

The understanding of "fallen asleep in death" meaning remaining dead for a period is supported by Jesus words. His friend Lazarus got sick and died. Jesus likened that death to sleep but notice that Lazarus was dead for four days before being resurrected. All Christians that die before 1914 can be described as "falling asleep" because they all will remain dead for a measurable period of time. Lazarus, Steven or any other of those individals "fell asleep" in Christ, to sleep and wait until their resurrection. Only those that die after Christ's return will not "wait" for their resurrection, they will come back to life INSTANTLY "in the twinkling of an eye" as Paul said. In short, if death is like sleep for those that remain dead for a time, those that die after 1914 don't "sleep" they "blink" in other words their sleep is so brief, it can be likened to a single "blink" or split second of time.

Does Paul's reference to certain Christians being "changed" mean "not die"?

No, "change" means "change". He in Corinthians explains that "change" will be from that which is corruptible, physical to that which is "incorruptible" or spiritual and likened that "change" (as did Jesus) to a seed dying in the ground and emerging as a new form (in this case a spiritual being). Those that conclude "change" means "not die" are just projecting their own theology, basing their entire conclusion upon a false assumption.

JW

RELATED POSTS

What did Jesus mean when he said certain individuals will meet the Lord "in the air"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p917314

Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p752214

Does Paul means words that some will not "fall asleep in death" mean some people will never die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 92#p917392

When do spirit anointed "born again" Christians join Christ in heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 95#p917395

tam · Post by **tam** » Sat May 12, 2018 2:12 am

Peace to you jw,

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote: The Corinthian verse states the opposite of what you seem to be understanding from it. Paul states that we will NOT all fall asleep... but we will all be changed.
Well you interpret Paul's words to mean "they will not die", so for you "not fall asleep" means "not die";

Because that is what it means.

To fall asleep means to die. To NOT fall asleep means to NOT die.

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

His disciples replied, â€œLord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.â€� They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.

So [Jesus] told them plainly, â€œLazarus is dead..." John 11:11-13

we interpret "not fall asleep" to mean not "NOT remain dead for a significant period"... we both understand in the negative Paul is saying something will not happen, but we don't take the words literally while you do.
This is purely an interpretation made to suit a religious doctrine. There is absolutely no reason to interpret 'fall asleep' as meaning 'not remain dead for a significant period.' Christ said Lazarus had fallen asleep and He meant that Lazarus had died. This is not the only example though: When Stephen died, he was described as having fallen asleep.

Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:60

If your interpretation was correct, then this would read, "When he had said this, he remained dead for a significant period."

That reading makes no sense; Stephen had clearly JUST died (fallen asleep).

The problem with your interpretation of "not fall asleep" meaning "not die" is that Paul also explained that " flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". Humans exist in "flesh and blood" meaning humans exist in the physical form and the only way to pass from the physical to the spiritual is ... to die.

Says who?

Certainly not Paul.

Paul states that those who are alive when Christ returns are taken up and changed, in a twinkling... the same as those who had died are changed.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet 1 Corinth 15:51

We will not all sleep (die)... but we will all be changed. Please also note that this occurs for everyone together, at the last trumpet.

Paul is saying the opposite of what you are saying.

It is only at death that a person is given a "spiritual body", so to interpret "not fall asleep" to mean "not die" contradicts Paul's entire argument about what the resurrection is and how it happens (1 Corininthians 15:50).

But you're basing that entire conclusion upon a false assumption (that it is only at death that a person is given a spiritual body).

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat May 12, 2018 2:17 am

tam wrote:
Well you interpret Paul's words to mean "they will not die", so for you "not fall asleep" means "not die"
Because that is what it means.

No that's what you THINK it means. That's what you have interpreted it to mean... that's what your teachers have told you to mean (or that's what the voice in your head has said it means) but that is not what it means.

I understand that is your opinion, an interpretation made to suit a religious doctrine, but I do not happen to agree with you and have presented my reasons, so we will have to simply agree to disagree on that.

JW

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat May 12, 2018 2:36 am

[Replying to post 24 by tam]

WHEN DO SPIRIT ANOINTED CHRISTIAN RISE?

tam wrote: Which is in keeping with the verse from Thessalonians ... we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

The operative word here is "until". While Paul here is saying that certain would be alive, they would remain alive until Christ's coming. What would happen to this group who were alive at that moment in time ("the coming of the Lord") is not explained in this expression.

To illustrate If someone said, I will keep my keys until my wife comes home, this only proves I will have my keys at the moment my wife arrives. Will I give her the keys? Will I throw them away? Will I continue to hold on to my keys? The expression doesn't give that information.

So, if Paul is not explaining that people will be taken bodily (flesh and blood) into heaven without dying, what was his point?

[that] we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

In other words, those spirit anointed Christians alive when the Lord Jesus calls his own home (1914) will not get to heaven before those that had been asleep in death for thousands of years before that date. Those Christians that had died before the Lord's return did not get to heaven before the others.

tam wrote:He returns with those who have fallen asleep in Him (so that they are the first to rise)

When Paul said " the dead in Christ will be the first to rise" could he not be referring to those that died in 33 CE on?

No because ALL spirit anointed Christians can be described as "the dead in Christ". Whether they die in 33 CE or 1914 or 2018 they are all die in Christ. So the "first" here cannot be referring to a part of that group, rather to the whole of that group. Revelation refers this collective resurrection of spirit anointed born again Christians as "the first resurrection" and Paul is clear, this event doesn't start until the Lord returns and calls them. No individuals in this group of spirit anointed Christians "precedes" or gets to heaven before that date; and those long dead do not precede those that died in our modern age.

Jw

RELATED POSTS

What did Jesus mean when he said certain individuals will meet the Lord "in the air"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p917314

Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p752214

Does Paul means words that some will not "fall asleep in death" mean some people will never die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 92#p917392

When do spirit anointed "born again" Christians join Christ in heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 95#p917395

GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

tam · Post by **tam** » Sat May 12, 2018 3:30 am

Peace to you JW,

I'll respond to the following from your post 25, even though you added it after my post 26, after I had already brought up Lazarus and Stephen. So further clarification on those two can be found in post 26.

LAZARUS: DEAD FOUR DAYS

The understanding of "fallen asleep in death" meaning remaining dead for a period is supported by Jesus words.

Incorrect.

Clearly stated (as post 26 explains):

Lazarus has fallen asleep = Lazarus is dead.

Even the explanation from the author of the book of "John" states that Christ was speaking about the DEATH of Lazarus. Not the amount of time that Lazarus had been dead.

Fallen asleep means death - regardless of how long or how short a time that sleep is. To have fallen asleep means that one has died - again, regardless of how long or short a time that sleep is.

His friend Lazarus got sick and died. Jesus likened that death to sleep but notice that Lazarus was dead for four days before being resurrected. All Christians that die before 1914 can be described as "falling asleep" because they all will remain dead for a measurable period of time. Lazarus, Steven or any other of those individals "fell asleep" in Christ, to sleep and wait until their resurrection. Only those that die after Christ's return will not "wait" for their resurrection, they will come back to life INSTANTLY "in the twinkling of an eye" as Paul said. In short, if death is like sleep for those that remain dead for a time, those that die after 1914 don't "sleep" they "blink" in other words their sleep is so brief, it can be likened to a single "blink" or split second of time.

Their sleep might be brief but even according to your own words they still SLEEP.

Paul said we will NOT ALL SLEEP.

Does Paul's reference to certain Christians being "changed" mean "not die"?

Who said that 'changed' means 'not die'?

Change means change.

Not sleep means not die.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat May 12, 2018 4:16 am

[Replying to post 29 by tam]

This point has been fully addressed.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 392#917392

We will therefore have to agree to disagree on it.

Have a most excellent weekend,

JW

RELATED POSTS

What did Jesus mean when he said certain individuals will meet the Lord "in the air"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 314#917314

Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 214#752214

Does Paul means words that some will not "fall asleep in death" mean some people will never die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 392#917392

When do spirit anointed "born again" Christians join Christ in heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 395#917395

FURTHER READING
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989259