Christianity in the News

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Jagella
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3667
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:01 am
Contact:

Christianity in the News

Post #1

Post by Jagella »

Yahoo News reports today (8/9/2018) that a child was abused and killed by her Christian parents who were following the New Testament's commandment to pray and have faith for healing. This story, Baby died of malnutrition after parents refused to get help 'due to religious reasons and fear of child services' has the following to say:
A 10-month old girl died of malnutrition and dehydration after her Christian parents allegedly refused to seek medical help for religious reasons, fear of child services and a lack of trust in medical services.

Seth Welch and Tatiana Fusari, both 27, have been charged with felony murder and first-degree child abuse in the death of their daughter, Mary.

Welch called the emergency services last week and the child was not breathing when deputies arrived at their home in Michigan's Solon Township, which sits to the north of Grand Rapids, the Kent County sheriff’s office said.

The child was found with sunken eyes and cheeks and a lack of pulse, and she was pronounced dead at the scene. An autopsy ruled the cause of death was malnutrition and dehydration due to neglect by adult caregivers.

The couple admitted their daughter had been skinny and underweight for at least a month, an affidavit alleged.

They did not seek medical help for religious reasons, fear of having Child Protective Services called and a lack of trust in medical services,� according to court records.

Footage taken in Kent County Court shows their shocked reaction as the judge tells them they could face life in prison without parole, if convicted of felony murder.

Welch’s jaw fell open and Fusari sobs as the judge reads out the charges.

The pair, have two older children together, aged two and four, are being held without bond and court records do not list lawyers who can speak on their behalf.

Child Protective Services have filed a neglect case against the parents involving their two eldest children.

Welch has posted about Child Protective Services, a distrust of doctors and religious beliefs on Facebook. He called doctors “priesthoods of the medical cult� and spoke in one video post about refusing to get his children vaccinated.

“The righteous shall live by faith. It’s God who is sovereign over disease and those sorts of things and, of course, ultimately deaths,� he said.

The couple return to court on 20 August and could face life in prison without parole if convicted of felony murder.
(My Emphasis)

The “The righteous shall live by faith..." quotation is taken from Romans 1:17:
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.�
It appears that in some cases the righteous die by faith.

Image

In the past I would post a sad story like this and ask Christians how they can call their faith "good" seeing that it has these kinds of results. Instead, today I'd like to ask if you care about tragedies like this? Or does your desire for immortality take precedence over people?

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 18629
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 147 times
Been thanked: 228 times
Contact:

Post #151

Post by otseng »

Donray wrote: You seem to be uneducated about the different Christians beliefs that all get them from the same bible.
:warning: Moderator Warning


Referring to another as uneducated would be against the rules.

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Christianity in the News

Post #152

Post by marco »

AdHoc wrote:

Murder is when one human kills another human.

If we postulate the existence of other intelligent beings, then that would not be a proper definition. If we discovered beings on Mars and arbitrarily killed them this would be murder.

If we invent an extra-terrestrial deity who kills humans then he is committing murder, albeit fictionally. Of course if the deity we've invented has tyrannical control and defines the dictionary for us, regarding us as ants, we'd have to ask him for the meaning of murder. Thankfully we're not in that situation.

User avatar
AdHoc
Guru
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:39 am

Re: Christianity in the News

Post #153

Post by AdHoc »

marco wrote:
AdHoc wrote:

Murder is when one human kills another human.

If we postulate the existence of other intelligent beings, then that would not be a proper definition. If we discovered beings on Mars and arbitrarily killed them this would be murder.

If we invent an extra-terrestrial deity who kills humans then he is committing murder, albeit fictionally. Of course if the deity we've invented has tyrannical control and defines the dictionary for us, regarding us as ants, we'd have to ask him for the meaning of murder. Thankfully we're not in that situation.
You said that very confidently as if it is an absolute a priori truth.

But the fact is you can't prove anything that you said ... absolutely.

If I could create an AI robot and then destroyed it would that be murder?

If I kill my unborn child is that murder?

How intelligent does an alien have to be for it to be considered murder?

No one who has a conscience needs a definition for murder.

Donray
Guru
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:25 pm
Location: CA

Re: Christianity in the News

Post #154

Post by Donray »

AdHoc wrote:
No one who has a conscience needs a definition for murder.
I have a conscience and know that your god is a murderer.

Tell me why your god can kill babies and that is not murder.

The Legal Definition of Murder in the State of California. Under California Penal Code 187 (a) PC, "murder" is defined as "the unlawful killing of a human being or a fetus with malice aforethought."

U.S. Code § 1111 - Murder
(a)Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.

How can the following be true if murder is only one human killing another. In this case the dog did it and by your diefinition there was no murder.
Lawyer found guilty of murder after dog mauling: A US lawyer whose dogs mauled a neighbour to death was today facing life in jail after being found guilty of second-degree murder.


So where does it say by another human? Your god murdered millions of babies and children. You can justify your god murdering by saying it the right since it created us or that murder means killing a human by human and nothing else is murder. All you are tying to do is justify your murdering god.

User avatar
AdHoc
Guru
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:39 am

Re: Christianity in the News

Post #155

Post by AdHoc »

Donray wrote:
AdHoc wrote: No one who has a conscience needs a definition for murder.
I have a conscience and know that your god is a murderer.

Tell me why your god can kill babies and that is not murder.
I'll do my best to answer your questions on this but if you want to discuss it further please start a new thread and I'll follow you.

A creator killing a creation isn't murder in my opinion. I can't prove that but I believe it to be self-evident. If you disagree that's fine but I'm not sure what court you would find willing to charge the Creator with murder.

They'd likely refer to it as an Act of God.
Donray wrote:The Legal Definition of Murder in the State of California. Under California Penal Code 187 (a) PC, "murder" is defined as "the unlawful killing of a human being or a fetus with malice aforethought."

U.S. Code § 1111 - Murder
(a)Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.
These points support my argument.
Donray wrote: How can the following be true if murder is only one human killing another. In this case the dog did it and by your diefinition there was no murder.
Lawyer found guilty of murder after dog mauling: A US lawyer whose dogs mauled a neighbour to death was today facing life in jail after being found guilty of second-degree murder.
Again you're making my point for me. In your example the lawyer was charged with murder not the dogs. I assume that they lawyer knew the dogs were dangerous or willfully allowed them to kill another person.
Donray wrote: So where does it say by another human?
You mean other than all your excerpts above? In the bible and probably every human law that is based on the bible.
Donray wrote: Your god murdered millions of babies and children. You can justify your god murdering by saying it the right since it created us or that murder means killing a human by human and nothing else is murder. All you are tying to do is justify your murdering god.
Is killing someone in war murder?

Is killing someone who has been found guilty of a crime murder?

Donray
Guru
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:25 pm
Location: CA

Re: Christianity in the News

Post #156

Post by Donray »

[Replying to post 155 by AdHoc]

So, your logic is that parents have a right to kill their children. The parents created the children. You are doing nothing but justifying murder by the god you worship.

So, your god can kill anyone or anything it is fine? You have no problem with your god killing you?

See this is why religious people kill their kids it is mentally ill people you the think your god has a right to do anything to the humans it created. Therefore, the logic is that parents can do anything to their creations. YOUR LOGIC to justify your god that murder millions of babies by drowning them, burning them, or killing them outright. All documented in your holy book called the bible.

Yet you wonder why people hurt their children. Could be because your god likes kill and hurt children?

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 9489
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 184 times

Post #157

Post by Bust Nak »

Donray wrote: See this is why religious people kill their kids it is mentally ill people you the think your god has a right to do anything to the humans it created.
Moderator Comment

You forgot the "some" qualifier. Please do not paint a whole group of people with the same brush.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Donray
Guru
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:25 pm
Location: CA

Post #158

Post by Donray »

See this is why many religious people kill their kids it is mentally ill people like you that think your god has a right to do anything to the humans it created. Therefore, the logic is that parents can do anything to their creations. YOUR LOGIC to justify your god that murder millions of babies by drowning them, burning them, or killing them outright. All documented in your holy book called the bible.

Added the word many to quify that it is not all.

User avatar
bluethread
Savant
Posts: 9133
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:10 pm

Re: Christianity in the News

Post #159

Post by bluethread »

Donray wrote:
AdHoc wrote:
No one who has a conscience needs a definition for murder.
I have a conscience and know that your god is a murderer.

Tell me why your god can kill babies and that is not murder.

The Legal Definition of Murder in the State of California. Under California Penal Code 187 (a) PC, "murder" is defined as "the unlawful killing of a human being or a fetus with malice aforethought."

U.S. Code § 1111 - Murder
(a)Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.

How can the following be true if murder is only one human killing another. In this case the dog did it and by your diefinition there was no murder.
Lawyer found guilty of murder after dog mauling: A US lawyer whose dogs mauled a neighbour to death was today facing life in jail after being found guilty of second-degree murder.


So where does it say by another human? Your god murdered millions of babies and children. You can justify your god murdering by saying it the right since it created us or that murder means killing a human by human and nothing else is murder. All you are tying to do is justify your murdering god.
Yes Adhoc is overlooking the fact that laws can be passed that make some forms of negligence murder. However, you also are in error in that you overlook the fact that murder is a matter of law. Therefore, if one were to accuse a deity of murder, one must establish an overarching legal code, that applies to deities. Are you aware of such a code?

Donray
Guru
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:25 pm
Location: CA

Re: Christianity in the News

Post #160

Post by Donray »

[Replying to post 159 by bluethread]

So your god kills babies and children. Is that better then it murdering them? Your god kills them with cruelty one could say by torture (but you most likely want to know what is torture for a god).

Do you consider killing someone by slowly drowning them cruel?

What about burning a child to death? Is that cruel?

You are being ridicules. I don't care if are discussing a god like Thor or a human in any country I know what is murder. Evidently you cannot define murder. Did Hercules murder anyone? After all he is a god. What about Thor? Did any god in your opinion ever murder someone or another god? Don't say that there are no other gods because you cannot prove there is your god.

Post Reply