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tigger2
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:55 pm  John's use of theos Reply with quote

Before I start a new discussion, I'd like to discuss some aspects of John's usage and grammar which will be needed.


First, my study has shown that John (and the other Gospel writers) always used the definite article when they intended the meaning of 'God' in the nominative case (theos). This means that (excluding the known grammatical exceptions) they always wrote ho theos when they meant 'God' (rather than 'a god').

Among the known grammatical exceptions, the most used is the uncertainty of the definite article (ho in this case) when theos is part of a prepositional phrase. These include phrases where a genitive is used with the nominative "God": "God of gods," "God of Israel."

It also includes normal prepositional phrases, e.g., "God to him," "God in heaven." Such 'prepositional' uses of "God" (or any other nominative noun in John's writings) may or may not use the article and still be understood as either definite or indefinite.

I have found dozens of places where John uses ho theos to mean "God."

So, as the first step, can anyone here find where John has used theos without the article to mean "God"?

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I used my own copy of Strong's Concordance along with my own Greek English interlinear to find all the uses of theos in all of John's writings. But if you don't have a copy of your own, you could try these:

A fairly good interlinear can be found here: [url] http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-6.htm [/url]

The following concordance begins with John at the bottom of the page:

[url] https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=god&t=NASB&ss... [/url]
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:22 pm
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[Replying to post 20 by tigger2]

Quote:
The Dana & Mantey quotes are irrelevant to what is being discussed.


Because you are the first to use D & M as your "appeal to authority" it is strange that you would allow the usage of the book to support your position, but disallow it when I use it to support my position. I am also assuming that you have the book at your disposal.

Are you perhaps relying on another person's work from a JW site? That would explain why you are not able to reference D&M

The usage of the book is quite germane to what is being discussed because it clearly explains the usages of the article, the participle and the genitive because it created a substantiative (meaning a noun phrase)

That you may believe that a grammar construction is "improper" does not make it so. That is an editorial-like decision, and since the construction has been as it is now for 2000 years, it is not our position to revise the words of APOSTLE John. We must deal with it as it is.

That is why I referred you to the Independent Nominative ¶ 83 Page 70 (4)

That is why I referred you to ¶ 197 page 220 which is the definition of participles

That is why I referred you to ¶146, Page 137 which is the explanation of the function of the article

You glossed over those, and when i stated that by DEFINITION a predicate nominative ALWAYS follows the verb, you essentially blew it off, and told me that that is not the case. Therefore since we are posting about grammar, it is not wrong for me for me to ask you for an example of your assertion that a predicate nominative proceeds the main verb.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:12 pm
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[Replying to post 21 by By Grace]

Grace:
Quote:
Because you are the first to use D & M as your "appeal to authority" it is strange that you would allow the usage of the book to support your position, but disallow it when I use it to support my position. I am also assuming that you have the book at your disposal.

"Are you perhaps relying on another person's work from a JW site? That would explain why you are not able to reference D&M

...............................

T2: I don't consider any NT Grammar to be perfect (particularly when it concerns trinity 'proofs'). I used D&M strictly for its endorsement of the exceptions to article usage in certain constructions. I also listed numerous respected trinitarian grammars at the bottom of that same post which agree with those exceptions.

Yes, I have all those grammars (and Murray J. Harris' book), do you?

Except for references to Trinitarian scholars, the study of John 1:1c is strictly my own. I spent many years examining it (and other Trinitarian 'proofs') before I rejected the trinity doctrine.

...................................

Grace:
Quote:
You glossed over those, and when i stated that by DEFINITION a predicate nominative ALWAYS follows the verb, you essentially blew it off, and told me that that is not the case. Therefore since we are posting about grammar, it is not wrong for me for me to ask you for an example of your assertion that a predicate nominative proceeds the main verb.

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T2: That is what this discussion has been about all along! First determine that theos (as in John 1:1c) when John intended 'God' always has the article (ho theos). Second, analyze all John's constructions which are parallel to John 1:1c (predicate noun before verb).

Carefully read the third sentence in your post #13! The list you provided may have the ENGLISH translation with predicate noun after the verb (which is normal in ENGLISH), BUT, if you could read the Greek, you would find that the GREEK predicate noun precedes the verb in all those examples.

Since you apparently don't understand much Greek, why don't you do as I did when I started 40+ years ago: use a good NT Greek-English interlinear to see which of the many predicate nouns come before the verb in the Greek of John. You can also find the various uses of theos with and without the article in John.

Since you don't understand the Greek and apparently reject anything I write, I'll wait until you get an interlinear and actually look up some of the things I have found concerning John 1:1c. Perhaps looking up the verses you have listed in post 13 to see where the NT Greek predicate is located in each one would be a good start.

Here are a couple of interlinears online:

[url] http://fdier.free.fr/Wescott_Hort_Interlinear.pdf [/url]

[url] http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-1.htm [/url] (Remember, the capitalization and punctuation have been added by the text writers and translators).

And it is important that you take the time to examine [url] http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.htm... [/url]
(Exanine carefully the first five lessons at least)

Then you will see what an honest analysis of John 1:1c has found. And then you can ask on-subject questions. I would appreciate that!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:23 pm
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tigger2 wrote:

[Replying to post 21 by By Grace]

Since you apparently don't understand much Greek, why don't you do as I did when I started 40 years ago: use a good NT Greek-English interlinear to see which of the many predicate nouns come before the verb in the Greek of John. You can also find the various uses of theos with and without the article in John.

Since you don't understand the Greek and apparently reject anything I write, I'll wait until you get an interlinear and actually look up some of the things I have found concerning John 1:1c. Perhaps looking up the verses you have listed in post 13 to see where the NT Greek predicate is located in each one would be a good start.


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:09 pm
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I would still like to discuss the Grammar of John 1:1c by examining all the uses of 'God' (theos, the nominative case which for theos always end in sigma or 's') in the writings of John (except of course John 1:1c itself) to see how often John used theos without the article when he clearly intended 'God.'

My study shows me that John (and the other Gospel writers) always used the article (ho, ) when he intended Almighty God. That is, I believe that John always used θεὸς (ho theos) when he intended 'God' in English. There are a few exceptions which must be understood (see above posts concerning prepositions and genitives).

Once anyone discovers that the above is correct (or shows me my error and lets me respond), we can go on to examine John's use of sentence structure parallel to John 1:1c and what it means.

Once that is done properly, we should know beyond a reasonable doubt what John actually meant by his statement in John 1:1c ('And the Word was ...').

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Sat May 26, 2018 4:28 pm
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tigger2 wrote:


To anyone who truly believes John 1:1c is honestly and clearly rendered as "and the Word was God": I would like to discuss the Grammar of John 1:1c by examining all the uses of 'God' (theos, the nominative case which for theos always ends in sigma or 's') in the writings of John (except of course John 1:1c itself) to see how often John used theos without the article when he clearly intended 'God.' This might help: [url] http://biblehub.com/greek/theos_2316.htm [/url]

My study shows me that John (and the other Gospel writers) always used the article (ho, ) when he intended Almighty God (instead of 'god' or 'a god'). That is, I believe that John always used θεὸς (ho theos) when he intended 'God' in English. There are a few exceptions which must be understood (see above posts concerning prepositions and genitives).

Once anyone discovers that the above is correct (or shows me my error and lets me respond), we can go on to examine John's use of sentence structure/word order parallel to John 1:1c and what it means.

Once that is done properly, we should know beyond a reasonable doubt what John actually meant by his statement in John 1:1c ('And the Word was ...').

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:19 pm
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As always, it appears that no one really wants to take on the complete challenge to the trinitarians' favorite scripture. Since my aging memory and thought processing are becoming ever more debilitating, I'll go ahead now and post the list of all the proper examples I have found in John's writing which are truly parallel to John 1:1c (anarthrous, non-'prepositional,' predicate count noun which comes before the verb in the NT Greek). If anyone in the future wants to examine it, here is a link to my original study of this. [url] http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/definite-john-11c.html
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Anarthrous: a noun which has no definite article with it in the Greek.

Preposition: such words as 'in,' 'on,' 'to,' 'for,' 'of,' etc.

'Preposition'-modified noun: a noun in Greek which is modified by a preposition or a genitive noun. E.g., 'house of...'; 'God to...'; etc.

Count noun: a noun which can normally be made plural and be counted: 'man/men' - '35 men'; 'tree/trees' - '4 trees'; etc.

Non-count noun: normally can't be counted: 'soup,' 'granite,' 'water,' 'oxygen,' etc. Also abstract nouns: 'honesty,' 'sadness,' 'perseverance,' 'warmth,' 'wisdom,' 'courage,' etc.

Predicate noun: A predicate noun is a single noun or a noun phrase that renames the subject of a sentence and usually follows a form of the verb "to be." Forms of the verb "to be" include: 'am,' 'is,' 'are,' 'was,' were,' be,' 'been,' 'being,' etc. Examples: "I am the boss." "It is an eagle." In English it follows the verb. In NT Greek, however, it is nearly as likely to come before the verb.

All the proper parallel examples I have found in John's writings (and even trinitarian NT Grammarians have agreed they are parallel) along with English Bible translations in parentheses:

H John 4:9 (a) - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all translations

H,W John 4:19 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W John 6:70 - indefinite (“a devil”/“a slanderer”) - all

H,W John 8:44 - indefinite (“a murderer”/“a manslayer”) - all

H,W Jn 8:44 (b) - indefinite (“a liar”) - all

H,W John 8:48 - indefinite (“a Samaritan”) - all

H,W Jn 9:8 (a) - indefinite (“a beggar”) - all

H,W Jn 9:17 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W John 9:24 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W Jn 9:25 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W John 10:1 - indefinite (“a thief and a plunderer”) - all

H,W Jn 10:13 - indefinite (“a hireling/hired hand”) - all

H,W John 10:33 - indefinite (“a man”) - all

H,W Jn 12:6 - indefinite (“a thief”) - all

H,W John 18:35 - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all

H,W John 18:37 (a) - indefinite (“a king”) - all

[H,W John 18:37 (b) - indefinite (“a king”) - in Received Text and in 1991 Byzantine Text]

1 Jn 4:20 - indefinite (“a liar”) - all
.............................

H: Also found in Harner’s list of “Colwell Constructions”
W: Also found in Wallace’s list of “Colwell Constructions”

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