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marco
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:29 am  Is it wrong to forgive? Reply with quote

Often when people do very bad things, someone forgives them and not always the victim. A father in Northern Ireland famously forgave the man who murdered his daughter. We can see the goodness in a victim forgiving an attacker but surely it is wrong for others, not involved in the attack, to forgive.

Is it wrong to forgive when one is not the sufferer?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:56 am
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[Replying to post 19 by marco]

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They are choosing to forgive the pain and sorrow and hardship that the crime has caused themselves as well.



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Commendable but not what was asked in the OP. The person who was hurt forgives NOT for the crime, but for the personal hurt received. There is no forgiveness for the original crime.



marco wrote:

Often when people do very bad things, someone forgives them and not always the victim. A father in Northern Ireland famously forgave the man who murdered his daughter. We can see the goodness in a victim forgiving an attacker but surely it is wrong for others, not involved in the attack, to forgive.

Is it wrong to forgive when one is not the sufferer?


Why would it be wrong? Why, for that matter, would you regard the dad of the murdered child to not have experienced suffering?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:00 am
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Re: Is it wrong to forgive?

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Aetixintro wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

I see no reason to bother to forgive "heathens", the malicious people, as they are probably not humans for it either way.

To them, the forgiveness can only suggest that a given Christian is opening the heart to evil of the recipient for the forgiveness which is an evil hope for them, that they have been successful in their attacks on humanity.

So there may be a normative sentence for Christians so to not burden one's heart with the "contradictory" feeling to "accept" the wrongdoing of one who may have only had the worst motivations for it either way: "Do not forgive people who are not people for receiving forgiveness. Don't forgive if it breaks your heart and you feel awful by it!"

Psychology is more useful than ever before.




Psychology is in its infancy. It has interesting applications and numerous superfluous syndromes. Astrology is also interesting.

I understand that Christians are asked to forgive not once but seventy times seven if we are to believe Matthew 18:22 . That's a strange number for Jesus to pick. As long as people persist in their malice there is no need to forgive them, I would have thought. Of course what one person sees as malice another sees as good; what some see as knowledge, others see as superstition. Education is good medicine for superstition.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:06 am
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William wrote:


Why would it be wrong? Why, for that matter, would you regard the dad of the murdered child to not have experienced suffering?



I think I have adequately covered this in previous replies. Is it wrong to forgive someone for causing you hurt? No, of course not. But that's not the question. Is it wrong to forgive someone for killing someone or for hurting somebody else? There is an element of intrusion in such forgiveness, since we are not the victims. By all means forgive for the inconvenience caused to ourselves.

"You stole all my neighbour's money and burned their house down, killing some of their family - but I forgive you!" I wonder if this is correct.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:39 am
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[Replying to post 23 by marco]

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I think I have adequately covered this in previous replies.


If I thought that, I would not still be seeking answers from you about it.

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Is it wrong to forgive someone for causing you hurt? No, of course not.


Agreed.

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But that's not the question.


Agreed.

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Is it wrong to forgive someone for killing someone or for hurting somebody else?


The example you gave re the father of the murdered daughter doesn't dovetail with the question. The father would naturally be hurt, even that this would not direct hurt...the indirect is accounted for in the perpetrators action - this is why families grieve for their losses in such circumstance.

It is not wrong for those hurt by indirect actions, to forgive the perpetrator, in such cases.

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There is an element of intrusion in such forgiveness, since we are not the victims. By all means forgive for the inconvenience caused to ourselves.


The father was more than simply 'inconvenienced' Marco.

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"You stole all my neighbour's money and burned their house down, killing some of their family - but I forgive you!" I wonder if this is correct.


Perhaps it is not really a question of morality at all?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:42 pm
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William wrote:


The father was more than simply 'inconvenienced' Marco.


Not as much as the girl. The father forgave the killer for causing him hurt; he had no remit in forgiving the murder.

An Afghani girl dated a boy of the wrong religion. Her uncle killed her and her father forgave his brother, understanding perfectly why the crime was committed. Was the father right to forgive?


Why do we judge it right in some cases and wrong in others?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:54 am
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[Replying to post 25 by marco]

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An Afghani girl dated a boy of the wrong religion. Her uncle killed her and her father forgave his brother, understanding perfectly why the crime was committed. Was the father right to forgive?


By what social customs am I to position myself in order to answer that Marco, when some would say 'yes' and some would say 'no'?

Quote:
Why do we judge it right in some cases and wrong in others?


My overall argument is that it is best not to judge it on the basis of 'right' and 'wrong'. Why social customs do so, appears to based on what is good for the majority of the community. Forgiveness is not usually (if ever) a feature of such laws.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:23 pm
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It is an injustice to forgive a person who did wrong to another.

Say a person molests a child, and is sentenced to prison for it. As a neighbour of the molester, I go ahead and forgive him for his crime. I let him out of prison a free man.

That is what forgiveness is--a wiping of the slate. If a person is forgiven, any punishment from a past crime is also gone. Otherwise there is not forgivness. In a christian context, it is like Christ forgives your sins but you still go to hell for them.

Lets take an example. Say there is a man named Saul, who has hunted down and murdered innocent people because of their faith. Is it right that an unrelated person forgive him for those murders? Any moral person will say no, it is not right at all. It is the exclusive right of those directly affected to forgive or not.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:22 pm
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William wrote:



By what social customs am I to position myself in order to answer that Marco, when some would say 'yes' and some would say 'no'?



We are not required to answer questions by placing ourselves under the conventions of local custom. As it happens, uncle and father buried the girl alive. Do we really need to agonise over whether this is right or wrong? So too with forgiveness - we address a philosophical question.

William wrote:


My overall argument is that it is best not to judge it on the basis of 'right' and 'wrong'. Why social customs do so, appears to based on what is good for the majority of the community. Forgiveness is not usually (if ever) a feature of such laws.



I am not an advocate of cultural diversity. I think we define ourselves as humans, and we act accordingly on issues. A couple who beat their daughter, breaking her fingers, were excused in a court because where they came from strict punishment was the acceptable norm. For me the sole consideration should be the welfare of the girl: all else is a silly irrelevance. But we are in a philosophical debate about forgiveness and who has the right to forgive. We rise above barbarity, not take it into consideration in our assessment.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:31 pm
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twobitsworth wrote:


Lets take an example. Say there is a man named Saul, who has hunted down and murdered innocent people because of their faith. Is it right that an unrelated person forgive him for those murders? Any moral person will say no, it is not right at all. It is the exclusive right of those directly affected to forgive or not.



That's the essence of the problem. We glibly look at Paul and forget people whose lives he possibly ended. And we read of noble Abraham who raised a knife to murder his son and we forgive him- even admire him - for doing what he thought he was told to do. We hear of a similar case in modern times where a woman is told - in her head - that God wants her daughter killed since she has a devil in her. The woman kills the daughter and no sheep are waiting around. Do we likewise forgive her since she acted for her God - or thought she did?

Forgiveness must take the victim into consideration; and only the victim - if still alive - can extend forgiveness.

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