God designed cancer and birth defects.

[Jagella]

Apologists and creationists in particular love to wow us with the amazing design of the world. We have many beautiful animals and plants to ogle. And if that isn't amazing enough, we have discovered a genetic code we call "DNA" that exists in each of the trillions of our cells. This code lays out a blueprint for what we all are--amazing, functional, and beautiful beings! Surely a god must be responsible for all this wonder because we need a designer to explain DNA.

But wait. It doesn't always work out in a good way. DNA often "malfunctions" resulting in cancer and birth defects. What kind of design is that? What monster-god would plan that babies are born without eyes and that people would suffer and die as cancer cells multiply wildly and destroy their bodies?

Question for Debate: Did the Bible god design cancer and birth defects?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 40 by ttruscott]

It is commonly accepted that God is outside of creation.

2 Chronicles 2:6
But who is able to build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him? Who then am I to build a temple for him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before him?


1 Kings 8:27
But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

2 Chronicles 6:18
But will God really dwell on earth with humans? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

[Deleted]

"Replying to post 39 by postroad"

Logic dictates that something that has a beginning and an end wouldn't be able to contain something without beginning or end.

Elsewhere, it was argued that time is a fundamental part of the Universe.

If God is beyond space and time (as declared in the verboten source of faith-based beliefs) then your argument above falls to the ground.

God is clearly portrayed as having created the heavens and the earth and all entities contained in them.

You would have to demonstrate the impossibility of a Being outside space and time creating a Universe within the limits of space and time.

There simply are no premises that would demand such a conclusion.

[William]

[Replying to post 42 by mrhagerty]

You would have to demonstrate the impossibility of a Being outside space and time creating a Universe within the limits of space and time.

There simply are no premises that would demand such a conclusion.

I tend to think of it like this;

IF
There is a creator of this universe;
THEN
We in our present positions (faith-based or otherwise) are incapable of discerning the nature of that creator, short of examining the creation itself.
A book or a movie may give us ideas, but truth is, we do not know.

That is where the buck must stop.

In relation to the thread topic this means effectively that whomever created this universe created everything about it, the good bad and the downright ugly.

In that, some may classify such a situation as 'downright ugly' and I wouldn't blame them for that.

*Brings out guitar and sings song*

[center]THE SILENCE
1992

Love!
Do we know the meaning Lord above?
Inside my head is screaming out so tell me
Am I dreaming?
Or awake before this living nightmare of a world
What do we say - and we say

What have we started?

The fires burning

What have we started - (The Broken Hearted)

What is the lesson...we are learning? (Forgotten - but still yearning!)

Take me to the river though I shiver in the winters cold
Who will hold my head for me - who will reach into my soul?
Who would dare to care enough to help me tear away this wall?
Who but Silence answers me? Who but Silence answers me!
And The Silence Ooohhh - The Silence says it all!

Peace!
We are invited to the feast!
Inside my heart delights at the action I must take
Lest I forget the taming of the beast within
Lest I forget the heart that aches! [/center]

*sticks another log on the fire...continues...*

But then *Rainbows*

All is not totally evil and all is not totally good.

What type of creator does this imply and how does that make one *feel*?

Clothe GOD anyway you want, but get it *wrong* and what is the consequence?

Speaking in the here and the now...

[Jagella]

GOD had no dismay over being rejected except as it affected HIS creation making them eternally unable to fulfill HIS purpose for their creation.

Then God goofed creating a world that is subject to decay.

There is a doctrine you have missed that contends that a little leaven (sin) leavens (corrupts ) the whole lump (person, state, reality). The effects of evil are pernicious and it must be eradicated from the reality of HIS heavenly marriage or heaven is doomed to be overturned.

This is a pernicious belief that has led to people being eradicated along with their "evil." The theists that flew planes into the World Trade Center thought just like you do believing that Americans were evildoers opposing God who needed to be done away with. Religion demonizes people who don't buy what it claims and is a major reason for tragic and violent attacks on innocent people.

The effect of the unforgivable sin is that by their free will choice to reject HIM and HIS help they put themselves beyond HIS help for ever...

If people have a choice, then why hurt them for exercising that choice?

All suffering is a judgement on the evil reprobate men...

Many good people suffer while "evil reprobate men" often prosper.

Your answer to just keep the Satanic happy and all will be well is naive. As they practice evil so they become even more evil (the leaven thing). The height of evil in human society is the psychopath but even they have more evil heights to reach, that is, they will become demons, that is, totally compulsively evil, in their hatred for GOD and HIS people.

Why do you have such a dim view of people? Most people I know are good people.

Your assessment of the situation as described by Christians and your answer misses the mark due to a lack of understanding of Christian definition of reality.

As I see it, it is you who lacks understanding of the Christian view of the world. You seem to be oblivious of its ill effects as it libels good people people as evil. You are evidently unaware of how Christianity can get good people to do evil things.

[JehovahsWitness]

I tend to think of it like this;

IF
There is a creator of this universe;
THEN
We in our present positions (faith-based or otherwise) are incapable of discerning the nature of that creator, short of examining the creation itself.
A book or a movie may give us ideas, but truth is, we do not know.

That is where the buck must stop.

It would indeed end there, unless said "unknowable" Creator, chose to make himself known by ...

• a) directly communicating with chosen individuals on the condition they in turn transmitted any information received to a larger audience
  
  ..and/or
  
  b) sent a representative that knew Him inimately from the spirit realm and charged that one to communicate further information about his nature ( and purpose) to humanity.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


FURTHER READING: Who is God?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... e-answers/

[ttruscott]

In relation to the thread topic this means effectively that whomever created this universe created everything about it, the good bad and the downright ugly.

This is a non-starter with Christians because we believe that HE created people whom HE allowed to be able to choose to be evil and ugly but HE did not create their evil, their evil impulses nor any hint of them having a need to be evil.

All were created ingeniously innocent, Satan too, with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to become HOLY in HIS sight or eternally perfectly evil.

[ttruscott]

GOD had no dismay over being rejected except as it affected HIS creation making them eternally unable to fulfill HIS purpose for their creation.

Then God goofed creating a world that is subject to decay.

Why? This place is a prison, not a mansion! It is a place to hold hardened criminals until their execution is finished and then it will be destroyed by fire and our real home established free from all evil. Pretty goofy from this pov, for sure.

There is a doctrine you have missed that contends that a little leaven (sin) leavens (corrupts ) the whole lump (person, state, reality). The effects of evil are pernicious and it must be eradicated from the reality of HIS heavenly marriage or heaven is doomed to be overturned.

This is a pernicious belief that has led to people being eradicated along with their "evil." The theists that flew planes into the World Trade Center thought just like you do believing that Americans were evildoers opposing God who needed to be done away with. Religion demonizes people who don't buy what it claims and is a major reason for tragic and violent attacks on innocent people.

Aye, Satan often indulges in evil by copying GOD's justice, it is a sad but true fact.

The effect of the unforgivable sin is that by their free will choice to reject HIM and HIS help they put themselves beyond HIS help for ever...

If people have a choice, then why hurt them for exercising that choice?

They HAD their choice and they did take it and chose to be what HE warned them would make them eternally evil in HIS sight which had to be met by eternal banishment to the outer darkness. So committed were they to their belief that HE was lying to us all about being our GOD and that there was no heaven or hell that they refused to make themselves safe from hell as the sinful elect did by accepting HIM as their GOD before going their own way against HIM. They went ahead anyway knowing perfectly that if HE ever proved to be our Creator GOD that they were indeed going to hell but they chose to take the chance on hell over any chance they would ever have to be married to this person they scorned so deeply. They openly chose hell over heaven and if free will means anything, they will get it.

All suffering is a judgement on the evil reprobate men...

Many good people suffer while "evil reprobate men" often prosper.

Most sinners who repent and become good people die pretty quickly as they are not needed here any more. And maybe we need a little trip thru the Psalms and Proverbs for a reminder that the prosperity of the wicked doesn't make them happy nor ease the judgments upon them.

Your answer to just keep the Satanic happy and all will be well is naive. As they practice evil so they become even more evil (the leaven thing). The height of evil in human society is the psychopath but even they have more evil heights to reach, that is, they will become demons, that is, totally compulsively evil, in their hatred for GOD and HIS people.

Why do you have such a dim view of people? Most people I know are good people.

Most of my friends are unbelievers and we get along fine. I'm as guilty of that as the next Christian but it is GOD's estimate about people that counts: Isa 64:5...How can we be saved if we remain in our sins? 6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like as filthy / unclean rags; ie, there is no goodness outside of GOD, your good unbelievers notwithstanding.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 47 by ttruscott

Are you claiming a Spiritually revealed truth?

If so, how is it that you have to flog it 247 year after year?

[Deleted]

"Replying to post 43 by William"

I tend to think of it like this;

IF
There is a creator of this universe;
THEN
We in our present positions (faith-based or otherwise) are incapable of discerning the nature of that creator, short of examining the creation itself.
A book or a movie may give us ideas, but truth is, we do not know.

That is where the buck must stop.

None of this establishes that God cannot be outside a space-time Universe he creates.

In relation to the thread topic this means effectively that whomever created this universe created everything about it, the good bad and the downright ugly.

Not if God created creatures with free will. They become creators of evil and ugliness by certain choices. If God created robots, He's responsible for their actions. Not so with free will creatures.

[William]

[Replying to post 49 by mrhagerty]

The three post replying to my own appear to neglect the OPQ, in their considerations when arguing against my own reasoning.

Question for Debate: Did the Bible god design cancer and birth defects?

The implication is that so - called 'free will' for humans to choose 'sin' is that it is 'sin' which creates the cancer and birth defects, if design is how things happen.

Christianities 'answers' that GOD is outside of [his] creation and only placed humans inside the universe because they were 'evil' (as with ttruscott's beliefs) or placed us inside the universe but 'because of human sinfulness + free will = physical changes in the universe happened' is all a natural aspect of argument based upon nonnegotiable faith-based beliefs, which are a pointless waste of time debating.

"Free Will" has not even been established as a real attribute humans actually have anyway.

The other aspect of this type of faith-based belief is that it also requires an antagonist GOD - which Christianity would not be able to survive without. It is a religion which has two opposing GODs with human beings as the meat in the middle.

Unreconciled.