Who wrote the Gospel we call "John's"?

[polonius]

This seems like a question the answer to which is self-evident.

Not really. Was the gospel signed or does it state John wrote this gospel?

If not, how is it determined to have been written by John?

[tam]

Peace to you,

I really don't have anything to add to what I shared earlier in the thread. So this is just a reminder. If Lazarus wrote the gospel (and he did), then he is also an apostle. Christ ate the last meal with the twelve apostles, and the disciple Christ loved (Lazarus) was one of them. (John 13:25; John 21:20; Matthew 26:20)


Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[polonius]

Peace to you,

I really don't have anything to add to what I shared earlier in the thread. So this is just a reminder. If Lazarus wrote the gospel (and he did), then he is also an apostle. Christ ate the last meal with the twelve apostles, and the disciple Christ loved (Lazarus) was one of them. (John 13:25; John 21:20; Matthew 26:20)


Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

QUESTION How do you conclude that if Lazarus wrote a gospel he is an apostle?

Do you consider Paul to be an apostle?

According to the New Testament, there were 12 apostles and 70 disciples. These are separate and distinct groups:

APOSTLES OF Jesus

Mark 3:13-19
13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him.

14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

..............

16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;

17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus,and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,

Judas was dropped.


DISCIPLES OF JESUS

Archaicus. Reference to in 1 Corinthians 16:17
Agabus. Reference to in Acts 11:28; Acts 21:10
Amplias, appointed by St. Andrew as bishop of Lydda of Odyssopolis (Diospolis) in Judea. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:8.
Ananias, who baptized St. Paul. He was the bishop of Damascus. He became a martyr by being stoned in Eleutheropolis. Reference to in Acts 9:10–17; Acts 22:12
Andronicus, bishop of Pannonia. Reference to in Romans 16:7
Apelles, bishop of Heraclea (in Trachis). Reference to in Romans 16:10
Apollos. He was a bishop of several places over time: Crete (though this is questioned), Corinth, Smyrna, and Caesarea. Reference to in Acts 18:24; Acts 19:1; 1 Corinthians 1:12; 1 Corinthians 3:4–22; 1 Corinthians 4:6; 1 Corinthians 16:12, Titus 3:13
Aquila. He was martyred. Reference to in Acts 18:2, Acts 18, Acts 26; Romans 16:3; 1 Corinthians 16:19; 2 Timothy 4:19
Archippus. Reference to in Colossians 4:17; Philemon 2
Aristarchus, bishop of Apamea in Syria. He was martyred under Nero. “Aristarchus, whom Paul mentions several times, calling him a ‘fellow laborer,’ became bishop of Apamea in Syria.� Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in Acts 19:29; Acts 20:4; Acts 27:2; Colossians 4:10; Philemon 24
Aristobulus, bishop of Britain. “… the brother of the apostle Barnabas, preached the gospel in Great Britain and died peacefully there.� Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in Romans 16:14
Artemas, bishop of Lystra in Lycia. Reference to in Titus 3:12
Aristarchus, bishop of Hyracania in Asia. Reference to in Romans 16:14
Barnabas. “A Jew of the Tribe of Levi, was born in Cyprus of wealthy parents. He is said to have studied under Gamaliel with Saul of Tarsus, who was to become Paul the apostle. Originally named Joseph, he was called Barnabas (Son of Consolation) by the apostles because he had a rare gift of comforting people’s hearts. He sought out Paul when everyone else was afraid of him, bringing him to the apostles. It was Barnabas whom the apostles first sent to Antioch with Paul. Their long association was broken only when Barnabas was determined to take his cousin Mark, whom Paul did not trust just then, on a missionary journey. The three were later reconciled. Many ancient accounts say Barnabas was the first to preach in Rome and in Milan, but he was martyred in Cyprus, then buried by Mark at the western gate of the city of Salamis.� Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in Acts 4:36; Acts 9:27; Acts 11–15; 1 Corinthians 9:6; Galatians 2:1, 9, 13; Colossians 4:10
Caesar, bishop of Dyrrhachium (in the Peloponnese of Greece)
Carpus, bishop of Berroia (Verria, in Macedonia. Reference to in 2 Timothy 4:13
Clement, bishop in Sardis. Reference to in Philippians 4:3
Cephas, bishop of Iconium, Pamphyllia.
Cleopas, was with the Lord on the road to Emmaus. Reference to in Luke 24:18; John 19:25
Crescens, later bishop of Galatia. He was martyred under the Emperor Trajan. Reference to in 2 Timothy 4:10
Crispus, bishop of Aegina, Greece. Reference to in Acts 18:8; 1 Corinthians 1:14
Epaphras. Reference to in Colossians 1:7; Colossians 4:12; Philemon 23
Epaphroditus, bishop of the Thracian city of Adriaca. Reference to in Philippians 2:25; 4:18
Epaenetus, bishop of Carthage. Reference to in Romans 16:5
Erastus. He served as a deacon and steward to the Church of Jerusalem. Later he served in Palestine. Reference to in Acts 19:22; Romans 16:23; 2 Timothy 4:20
Euodias(Evodius), first bishop of Antioch after St.Peter. He wrote several compositions. At the age of sixty-six, under the Emperor Nero, he was martyred. Reference to in Philippians 4:2
Fortunatus. Reference to in 1 Corinthians 16:17
Gaius, bishop of Ephesus. Reference to in Acts 19:29; Acts 20:4; Romans 16:23; 1 Corinthians 1:14; 3 John 1
Hermas, bishop in Philipopoulis. He wrote The Shepherd of Hermas. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:14
Hermes, bishop of Dalmatia. Reference to in Romans 16:14
Herodion, a relative of the Apostle Paul, bishop of Neoparthia. He was beheaded in Rome. Reference to in Romans 16:11
James, brother of the Lord (also called "the Less" or "the Just"). James was the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Reference to in Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3; Acts 12:17; Acts 15:13; Epistle of James
Jason, bishop of Tarsus. Traveling with Sosipater to Corfu, the two were able, after an attempt made at their lives by the king of Corfu, to convert his majesty. Reference to in Acts 17:5–9
Justus, brother to the Lord and bishop of Eleutheropolis. He was the half-brother of Christ (as was Sts. James, Jude, and Simon) through Joseph's previous marriage to Salome. He died a martyr. Reference to in Acts 1:23; Acts 18:7; Colossians 4:11
Linus, bishop of Rome. Reference to in 2 Timothy 4:21
Lucius, bishop of Laodicea. Reference to in Acts 13:1; Romans 16:21
Luke the Evangelist. He is the author of the Gospel of Luke, and the founder of Iconography (Orthodox Icon-writing). Reference to in Colossians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:11; Philemon 24
Mark the Evangelist (called John). He wrote the Gospel of Mark. He also founded the Church of Alexandria, serving as its first bishop. Reference to in Acts 12:12, Acts 25; Acts 15:37–39; Colossians 4:10; 2 Timothy 4:11; Philemon 24; 1 Peter 5:13
Mark
Narcissus, ordained by the Apostle Philip as bishop of Athens, Greece. Reference to in Romans 16:11
Nicanor, one of the original seven deacons. He was martyred on the same day as the Promartyr Stephen. Reference to in Acts 6:5
Olympas, beheaded with St. Peter under Nero. Reference to in Romans 16:15
Onesimus. Onesimus preached the Gospel in many cities. He was made bishop of Ephesus, and later bishop of Byzantium (Constantinople). He was martyred under the Emperor Trajan. Reference to in Colossians 4:9; Philemon 10
Onesiphorus, bishop of Colophon (Asia Minor), and later of Corinth. He died a martyr in Parium. Reference to in 2 Timothy 1:16; 4:19
Parmenas, one of the original seven deacons. He preached throughout Asia Minor, and later settled in Macedonia. He was a bishop of Soli. He died a martyr in Macedonia. Reference to in Acts 6:5
Patrobus, bishop of Neapolis (Naples). Reference to in Romans 16:14
Philemon. He, with his wife Apphia, and the apostle Archippus, were martyred by pagans during a pagan feast. Reference to in Philemon 1
Philip the Deacon (one of the original seven). He was born in Palestine, and later preached throughout its adjoining lands. In Acts, he converts a eunuch (an official) of Candace, queen of Ethiopia, to Christ. He was later made bishop by the apostles at Jerusalem, who also sent him to Asia Minor. Reference to in Acts 6; Acts 8; Acts 21:8
Philologus, ordained bishop of Sinope (near the Black sea) by the Apostle Andrew. Reference to in Romans 16:15
Phlegon, bishop of Marathon, in Thrace. Reference to in Romans 16:14
Prochorus, one of the original seven deacons. He was made bishop of Nicomedia by St. Peter. He was later banished with the Apostle John (John the Theologian) to the Island of Patmos. In Antioch, he died a martyr. Reference to in Acts 6:5
Pudens (Pastorum). He was an esteemed member of the Roman Senate, then received Sts. Peter and Paul into his home, and was converted to Christ by them. He was martyred under Nero. Reference to in Acts 6:5
Quadratus, bishop of Athens. He was author of the Apologia. He was stoned, but survived. Soon-after, he died of starvation in prison.
Quartus, bishop of Beirut. Reference to in Romans 16:23
Rufus, bishop of Thebes, Greece. Reference to in Mark 15:21; Romans 16:13
Silas (Silvanus), bishop of Corinth. Reference to in Acts 15:22–40; Acts 16:19–40; Acts 17:4–15; Acts 18:5; 2 Corinthians 1:19; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:1; 1 Peter 5:12
Simeon, son of Cleopas. “Simeon, son of Cleopas (who was the brother of Joseph, the betrothed of the Virgin Mary), succeeded James as bishop of Jerusalem.� Orthodox Study Bible. He was martyred through torture and crucifixion, at the age of one-hundred. Reference to in Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3
Sosipater, ordained bishop of Iconium by the Apostle Paul, his relative. With St. Jason, he converted the king of Corfu. Reference to in Romans 16:21
Sosthenes. “… became bishop of Caesarea.� Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in 1 Corinthians 1:1
Stachys, ordained by St. Andrew to be bishop of Byzantium. Reference to in Romans 16:9
Stephen the Promartyr and Archdeacon (one of the original seven deacons). Reference to in Acts 6:5–7:60; Acts 8:2 (Acts 6:5–8:2); Acts 11:19; Acts 22:20
Tertius, bishop of Iconium (after Sosipater). He wrote down St. Paul's letter to the Romans. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:22
Thaddaeus. He was baptized by John the Baptist (John the Forerunner). He later preached, and founded a Church in Beirut. Reference to in Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18
Timon, one of the original seven deacons, and later bishop of Bostra (in Arabia). He was thrown into a furnace, but emerged unharmed. Reference to in Acts 6:5
Timothy. He accompanied St. Paul often, and both 1 and 2 Timothy are addressed to him. He was ordained bishop of Ephesus by St. Paul. He died a martyr. Reference to in Acts 16:1; Acts 17:14, Acts 15; Acts 18:5; Acts 19:22; Acts 20:4; Romans 16:21; 1 and 2 Timothy
Titus. “Among the more prominent of the seventy was the apostle Titus, whom Paul called his brother and his son. Born in Crete, Titus was educated in Greek philosophy, but after reading the prophet Isaiah he began to doubt the value of all he had been taught. Hearing the news of the coming of Jesus Christ, he joined some others from Crete who were going to Jerusalem to see for themselves. After hearing Jesus speak and seeing His works, the young Titus joined those who followed Him. Baptized by the apostle Paul, he worked with and served the great apostle of the gentiles, traveling with him until Paul sent him to Crete, making him bishop of that city. It is said that Titus was in Rome at the time of the beheading of St. Paul and that he buried the body of his spiritual father before returning home. Back in Crete, he converted and baptized many people, governing the Church on that island until he entered into rest at the age of ninety-four.� Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in 2 Corinthians 2:13; 2 Corinthians 7:6–14; 2 Corinthians 8:6–23; 2 Corinthians 12:18; Galatians 2:1–3; Epistle to Titus
Trophimus, disciple of St. Paul, and martyred under Nero. Reference to in Acts 20:4; Acts 21:29; 2 Timothy 4:20
Tychicus. “… succeeded him (Sosthenes, as bishop) in that city (of Caesarea).� Orthodox Study Bible. He delivered St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians and Colossians. Reference to in Acts 20:4; Ephesians 6:21; Colossians 4:7; 2 Timothy 4:12; Titus 3:12
Urbanus, ordained by the Apostle Andrew as bishop of Macedonia. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:9
Zenas (called 'the lawyer'), bishop of Diospolis (Lydda), in Palestine. Reference to in Titus 3:13

[otseng]

Christ ate the last meal with the twelve apostles, and the disciple Christ loved (Lazarus) was one of them.

It's not clear the disciple Christ loved ate during the last supper. He only enters the scene after the supper is completed.

Jhn 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him; 3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; 4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. ... 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

The disciple was leaning on Jesus' bosom after the supper had ended, not during. The fourth gospel never talks about what happened while the supper was occuring, so most likely the author did not participate in the actual supper.

[otseng]

I really don't have anything to add to what I shared earlier in the thread. So this is just a reminder. If Lazarus wrote the gospel (and he did), then he is also an apostle.

QUESTION How do you conclude that if Lazarus wrote a gospel he is an apostle?

Do you consider Paul to be an apostle?

According to the traditional attribution of the authors of the synoptic gospels, only Matthew was one of the 12 apostles.

Matthew – a former tax collector who was called by Jesus to be one of the Twelve Apostles,
Mark – a follower of Peter and so an "apostolic man,"
Luke – a doctor who wrote what is now the book of Luke to Theophilus. Also known to have written the book of Acts (or Acts of the Apostles) and to have been a close friend of Paul of Tarsus,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists

Modern scholarship doesn't attribute the original authors of the gospels to any of the 12 apostles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historica ... he_Gospels

[tam]

Peace to you polonius,

Peace to you,

I really don't have anything to add to what I shared earlier in the thread. So this is just a reminder. If Lazarus wrote the gospel (and he did), then he is also an apostle. Christ ate the last meal with the twelve apostles, and the disciple Christ loved (Lazarus) was one of them. (John 13:25; John 21:20; Matthew 26:20)


Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

QUESTION How do you conclude that if Lazarus wrote a gospel he is an apostle?

I did not state that if Lazarus wrote A gospel then he is an apostle. That is not what I said.

I said if Lazarus wrote THE gospel - the gospel under discussion - then he is also an apostle, one of the twelve, eating with Christ at the last meal. Because the author of that gospel was an apostle, one of the twelve eating and reclining at the table with Christ.

John 21:20

Peter turned and saw the disciple whom [Jesus] loved following them. This was the one who had leaned back against [Jesus] at the supper to ask, "Lord, who is going to betray You?"

See also John 13:23-25 and John 21:24 (which shows that the disciple Christ loved is the one who wrote down this testimony)







Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[otseng]

Luke mentions Peter visiting the empty tomb, but does not mention John. If the disciple Jesus loved was John, shouldn't he have been mentioned too in Luke?

Luk 24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

Why wasn't Lazarus mentioned? I think the same reason he was not mentioned at all in any of the synoptic gospels - he was a youth and considered to be inconsequential.

In Mark, the 11 apostles are described to have unbelief and hardness of heart until they actually saw Jesus.

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

However, in John 20:8, the other disciple believed. What did he believe? He must've believed that Jesus was resurrected.

Jhn 20:8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

If the disciple was John, then it would be inconsistent with Mark 16:14.

Why would Lazarus immediately believe? Because he saw the graveclothes and it reminded him of his own resurrection.

Jhn 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

Jhn 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

[otseng]

Interestingly, in the book of John, John the Baptist is always referred to as John, never John the Baptist. However, in the synoptic gospels, John is often referred to as John the Baptist. If John the Apostle wrote the book of John, wouldn't he more likely qualify with John the Baptist to distinguish him from himself?

[jgh7]

Interesting beliefs and theories about Lazarus being the author. What about the epistles of John? The writing style is incredibly similar (in my opinion) to the author of the Gospel of John, so that would make them Lazarus' writings as well?

But then Revelation is still attributed to John correct?

[otseng]

What about the epistles of John? The writing style is incredibly similar (in my opinion) to the author of the Gospel of John, so that would make them Lazarus' writings as well?

1, 2, 3 John were written anonymously. They were most likely written by the same author of the fourth gospel, which would be Lazarus.

But then Revelation is still attributed to John correct?

Yes.

[tam]

Peace to you Otseng,

You have made some good points about Lazarus being the author and the disciple Christ loved. I know Lazarus to be the disciple Christ loved because my Lord confirmed this to me. So I love it when people bring out points (give additional witness) that support this.

Lazarus is also one of the twelve apostles.

Christ ate the last meal with the twelve apostles, and the disciple Christ loved (Lazarus) was one of them.

It's not clear the disciple Christ loved ate during the last supper. He only enters the scene after the supper is completed.

He is in the scene from the start as one of the apostles, but he is not identified personally (as the disciple Christ loved) until Peter asks him to ask their Lord which of them was going to betray Him.

Jhn 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him; 3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; 4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. ... 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

The disciple was leaning on Jesus' bosom after the supper had ended, not during. The fourth gospel never talks about what happened while the supper was occurring, so most likely the author did not participate in the actual supper.

How does that become a 'most likely' occurrence? Matthew (considered to be an apostle) does not mention the feet washing. Would that mean he was not present for it or did he simply not mention it?



As well, no gospel or witness mentions the idea that other disciples entered the room at some point after the meal was finished. There is just no evidence to support that. Yet that is what some are accepting occurred?


Look at Mark:

When evening came, [Jesus] arrived with the Twelve. While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me—one who is eating with me.�


No mention of anyone other than the twelve at the table and eating with Christ. From the start all the way through to the end of the meal (including to the point where Judas is revealed and leaves).


Here is a comparison of the accounts:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV


We could get into smaller details as well:

Christ is the only one who is written of having gotten up from his place at the table to wash the feet of his disciples, and then he returned to his place. (John 13:4, 12) If a different disciple (not one of the twelve) had just entered the room to take the seat next to Christ, would that not indicate that one of the apostles had given up their seat next to Him? (Please note that this all occurs before Judas is revealed and leaves.)



Anyway, just some things to consider.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy