"I forgive you but SOMEONE has to pay!"

[Elijah John]

If someone says "I forgive you, but someone has to pay, how about my innocent Son?" Would that really be forgiveness?

Does true mercy require "payment"? If so, how is it still mercy?

If a loan is forgiven, does the creditor require payment from someone else?

Isn't God capable of forgiving the contrite, without "payment"?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 66 by 2timothy316]

You're still not giving me what I'm asking for.

You're not even addressing what I've posted. I'm not here to play Simon Says...

I'm asking for the scripture plainly states that Moses was speaking of the A&E story as a parable, figurative account, illustration or myth or whatever you're calling to say it didn't happen the way the Bible describes it.

I provided plenty of proof to support my claims. You have yet to address anything I've posted, much less refute any of it. That's where you might want to start. Until then, you'll have to play Simon Says... with someone else.

Luke 15:11-32 is a about the prodigal son. It's not about a real person. It's a parable. Yet how do we know this? Because the Bible says that Jesus would speak in illustrations or parable compare Matthew 13:35 and Psalm 78:2.

The passage you cite is incorrect. It isn't just about a prodigal son. It's about "two sons", and if you were to actually look at the context, the older son is referring to the hypocritical Jewish elders who were supposed to be looking out for those who had gone astray. That's what an older brother is supposed to do. They dropped the ball, and horded God's oracles for themselves. Jesus condemned them for their hypocrisy. Jesus is the true older brother who goes after those little brothers who have gone astray like lost sheep. Thanks for providing yet another prime example of how NOT to read scripture. Evidently, you didn't notice who Jesus was talking to. I would suggest reading these passages in context, but then you've already concluded that isn't necessary.


The rest of your post seems to be insisting that you will not engage in debate unless I take some restrictive idiotic position I don't adhere to in the first place. So much for my last effort. My only idiotic position is attempting to debate someone who refuses to debate unless I follow their fabricated rules. I wish you the best of luck with that program, but I will politely pass. Thanks anyways.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 67 by PinSeeker]

All living humans with their names written in the Book of Life (living Christians) at the Second Coming will also be changed into everlasting spiritual beings at that time.

Well, they'll be changed, certainly, into everlasting beings, but we'll most certainly have physical bodies. Those who died before the Second Coming will have their souls/spirits reunited with their physical bodies.

Highly speculative and very doubtful. Physical bodies don't walk through locked doors, or spontaneously appear and vanish. They don't just appear to believers. Anyone can see a physical body, but then that's why Jesus points out that the kingdom doesn't come by observation. Those who choose to wait for a kingdom they can see will only be disappointed.

We will then spend the 1000-year millennium with our Lord and Savior.

Nnnnnnn-no. When Jesus comes back, eternity will have begun.

Nnnnnnn-no, there is no beginning or end to eternity. There is no duration to eternity either.

All whose names are not written in the Book Of Life will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer a quick second and everlasting death.

Well, again, yes and no. The lake of fire is not literal. This is symbolism, but we must not, though, think of it as being merely a symbol. But the sinner in hell would prefer a literal lake of fire as his eternal abode to the reality of hell represented in the lake of fire image; the reality is worse than the symbol suggests. That Jesus used the most awful symbols imaginable to describe hell is no comfort to those who see them simply as symbols.

Yes, and no. No doubt Symbols are not "merely Symbols". The reality is not worse than the Symbol suggests. The reality is what the Symbol suggests. Try holding a lit match under your skin for as long as possible, and you'll get an idea of what a lake of fire might be like. Then again, I don't need to light a match to know a lake of eternally burning fire is going to be quite painful. I also know that it will consume a body in no time. That's what God is like to those who are wicked. God is a consuming fire and when something is consumed, it's GONE.

[shnarkle]

All living humans with their names written in the Book of Life (living Christians) at the Second Coming will also be changed into everlasting spiritual beings at that time.

Well, they'll be changed, certainly, into everlasting beings, but we'll most certainly have physical bodies.

There is no such thing as an everlasting physical body.

Physical bodies perish.

As obvious as your observation may be, it is highly unlikely to be accepted by most people for the salient reason that most people identify with their physical bodies. It is a sort of multiple personality disorder. People look at something that is theirs as if it is also who they are. Go figure.

Even more startling is that the psychological community doesn't seem to have a problem with this, at least until it goes beyond those first few.

When Christ comes along and points out that to let go of not only the body, but one's very identity, the authors of the gospels come up with what is the most appropriate analogy imaginable; crucifixion. This is what it means to let go one's identity. It's that horrific to most people, so they insist that resurrection must be a literal physical resurrection of their corpse.

[myth-one.com]

All living humans with their names written in the Book of Life (living Christians) at the Second Coming will also be changed into everlasting spiritual beings at that time.

Well, they'll be changed, certainly, into everlasting beings, but we'll most certainly have physical bodies.

There is no such thing as an everlasting physical body.

Physical bodies perish.

As obvious as your observation may be, it is highly unlikely to be accepted by most people for the salient reason that most people identify with their physical bodies. It is a sort of multiple personality disorder. People look at something that is theirs as if it is also who they are. Go figure.

Even more startling is that the psychological community doesn't seem to have a problem with this, at least until it goes beyond those first few.

When Christ comes along and points out that to let go of not only the body, but one's very identity, the authors of the gospels come up with what is the most appropriate analogy imaginable; crucifixion. This is what it means to let go one's identity. It's that horrific to most people, so they insist that resurrection must be a literal physical resurrection of their corpse.

Every deceased human will be resurrected:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (I Corinthians 15:22)

But only some will be resurrected to everlasting life:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life... (Daniel 12:2)

The vast majority of deceased humans (nonbelievers) will be resurrected with physical bodies at the second resurrection for mankind -- after the millennium.

These physical bodies will suffer a second and everlasting physical death in the lake of fire if they do not accept Jesus as their Savior and be born again as spiritual bodies.

Two type of bodies are defined in the Bible:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

There is no hybrid natural/spiritual body defined anywhere.

That myth was first suggested in Genesis:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die."

In general, mankind fears death. We treat our fear of death with the defense mechanism of denial. That is, we deny it. We say we will live forever, thus taking on godly characteristics.

We are therefore the perfect victims for Satan's lie of, "Ye shall not surely die."

Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated that lie of man's immortality into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 66 by 2timothy316]

You're still not giving me what I'm asking for.

You're not even addressing what I've posted.

Nor will I, because for me your post are not posts from place of authority. I can throw a dime out a window and it hit 10 people with 10 different interpretations of the Bible. None of which have the authority to speak for God.

I'm not here to play Simon Says...

I didn't say you had to. It seems you thought you had something to add that would make the A&E account something else than what it is, but after closer examination, what you're posting is just an opinion about a scripture's interpretation. I find that here is another interpretation that has no divine source to back it up. So I ask for one and suddenly its 'Simon says' as if I have no right to ask for proof that your interpretation is from God.

If you could've quoted something from the Bible that said, 'Moses wrote in parable' or if someone in the Bible said, 'recall the parable of Adam' then you'd have something worth looking into. Be we both know this doesn't exist and to try to spin some scripture in the Bible to say so is not acceptable. The so-called Christian churches have been spinning the Bible to say what they want it to for centuries. Some like these spins on scriptures and millions of people flock to places of worship to hear one they like. I am not one of those people.

[myth-one.com]

Those who died before the Second Coming will have their souls/spirits reunited with their physical bodies.

The scriptures form the most amazing book ever written. The answers to man's every question are placed into a book which is brilliantly sealed from his understanding! Satan immediately sets man off on the totally wrong path when he instills in man the concept that, "Ye shall not surely die." After the first few pages of Genesis, Satan has successfully sealed the Bible from man's understanding.

This initial false belief that man is born as an immortal soul living within a physical body seals the remainder of the Bible from man's understanding. The remainder of the Bible must be incorrectly "interpreted" to support this original error! Consequently, secondary myths are created to support this initial myth created in the first few pages of Genesis. With a little assistance from Satan, man seals the scriptures from his own understanding!

An example of a secondary myth is the "bodily resurrection" theology. If you believe you are born with an immortal soul, you are forced to misinterpret the definition of Christians being born again at the resurrection in First Corinthians:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)

This scripture is not complicated.

The Christian body that is sown (or buried) is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This is the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die.

At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies. This is exactly what the above verses state! Read them again several times if you must to confirm their simple truth.

Those humans who died believing in Jesus Christ will be born as spiritual bodies at the resurrection. Since this is their second birth, they are born again. The first man Adam was a living, breathing being or soul. The last Adam was made a quickening spirit or spiritual body.

People who believe they are born as an immortal soul inhabiting a physical body will tell you this verse means the soul is rejoined with an incorruptible physical body which will never die. This is known as the bodily resurrection doctrine. This false interpretation is forced upon them once they believe Satan's lie that they already possess an eternal spiritual body, "Ye shall not surely die." If mankind already has a spiritual body this scripture cannot mean what it states. Therefore, it must be interpreted to mean that the already existing spiritual body, which they believe all men to be born with, is merged with an incorruptible, immortal physical body at the resurrection! After all, if you already have an immortal spiritual body, or soul, why would you need another one? Thus, they would have born again Christians remaining a little lower that the angels, since they are handicapped by a physical body.

This secondary bodily resurrection myth does resolve the problem of punishment for the nonbelievers and it is good news for all sadists. It is now possible to punish nonbelievers twenty-four hours a day for eternity in hellfire since their physical bodies can experience pain but never die!

What a sad "Christian" concept!

When Jesus Christ sees His followers believing that He created a system to torture nonbelievers with the pain and terror of burning alive for eternity, what might His reaction be?

My guess is that:

Jesus wept. (John 11:35)

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 72 by myth-one.com]

Every deceased human will be resurrected:
But only some will be resurrected to everlasting life:
These physical bodies will suffer a second and everlasting physical death in the lake of fire

You're playing with the meaning of words here. Everlasting life is not everlasting death, but your meaning of everlasting death borrows from the meaning of life. The definition of life and the definition of death are not synonymous. However, everlasting means everlasting. So we can safely assume that when one is dead, they're not alive. Eternal life means living forever. Everlasting or eternal death means your dead forever.

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever, "Ye shall not surely die."

Right, so to say that one will be tormented in everlasting death isn't saying anything. It's gibberish.

We say we will live forever, thus taking on godly characteristics.

Sure, and suggesting eternal torment is equivalent to "everlasting death" is also to assume one can redefine the commonly accepted meaning of words as if by divine fiat.

We are therefore the perfect victims for Satan's lie of, "Ye shall not surely die."

Speak for yourself.

Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated that lie of man's immortality into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!

Yep, and there's no better example than the oxymoron of "everlasting death".

For we are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea, that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary, foreign, and is nowhere found in the Old Testament. The whole man dies, when in death the spirit (Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 12:7), or soul (Genesis 35:18; 2 Samuel 1:9; 1 Kings 17:21; Jonah 4:3), goes out of a man. Not only his body, but his soul also returns to a state of death and belongs to the nether-world; therefore the Old Testament can speak of a death of one's soul (Genesis 37:21 (Hebrew); Numbers 23:10 m; Deuteronomy 22:21; Judges 16:30; Job 36:14; Psalms 78:50), and of defilement by coming in contact with a dead body (Leviticus 19:28; 21:11; 22:4; Numbers 5:2; 6:6; 9:6; 19:10; Deuteronomy 14:1; Haggai 2:13). This is a deprivation of all that makes for life on earth. The Sheol (she'ol) is in contrast with the land of the living in every respect (Job 28:13; Proverbs 15:24; Ezekiel 26:20; 32:23); it is an abode of darkness and the shadow of death (Job 10:21,22; Psalms 88:12; 143:3), a place of destruction, even destruction itself (Job 26:6; 28:22; 31:12; Psalms 88:11; Proverbs 27:20), without any order (Job 10:22), a land of rest, of silence, of oblivion (Job 3:13,17,18; Psalms 94:17; 115:17), where God and man are no longer to be seen (Isaiah 38:11), God no longer praised or thanked (Psalms 6:5; 115:17), His perfections no more acknowledged (Psalms 88:10-13; Isaiah 38:18,19), His wonders not contemplated (Psalms 88:12), where the dead are unconscious, do no more work, take no account of anything, possess no knowledge nor wisdom, neither have any more a portion in anything that is done under the sun (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10).

[ttruscott]

We are therefore the perfect victims for Satan's lie of, "Ye shall not surely die."

OR, if she knew she was created to be eternally self and other aware, (no annihilation), and If she knew she was an elect she knew she would have eternal life, not eternal death in the outer darkness, the serpent used this truth to manipulate her into rebellion to GOD's plans for HIS creation by playing on: "What's the worst that can happen?"

In this way, the garden conversation is the type for the previous anti-type of the fall of some of the elect from their state of righteousness probably in rebellion to GOD's call for the judgement of the reprobate which had to be postponed by their fall, Matt 13:28 ...So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.