How is Jesus the Savior? Who or what does Jesus save us from?
From sin and death? People still sin, and people still die.
From the world, the flesh and the devil? YHVH does all that. (Isaiah 43.11)
Or is it salvation from YHVH Himself? If Jesus is savior, does that make Jesus the "good cop" and YHVH the "bad cop"? Jesus the hero, and YHVH the villain?
The Hebrew Scriptures already provide us with an all-sufficient Savior:
I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
Why do we need another? Isn't calling Jesus "Savior" redundant..at best? And at worst, contradictory to Scripture?
Last edited by Elijah John on Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
William: Have you ever thought that perhaps YHVH and Jesus are the same being?
Divine Insight: That doesn't work because if Yahweh was already the savior in the Old Testament then there would have been no need for him to come to earth posing as his own son and being crucified by humans to supposedly qualify him as savior. He would have already been qualified as savior from the get-go.
William: If that were the case, then you should be able to quantify for the reader as to exactly;
1: How is Yahweh the Savior?
2: Who or what does Yahweh save us from?
How can you divine that Yahweh, as Jesus, was not in fact fulfilling script?
How do you divine that Jesus is not Yahweh, and that it was not he who said "I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior."?
What was the script referring to in relation to those words?
What makes you believe that Judaism in the time of Jesus, was the instrument of Yahweh, when we know from the story how often Yahweh was angered by being misrepresented by Israel?
I don't need to qualify anything you've just suggested as none of it reflects my position. Where you come up with this stuff is beyond me. It certainly has nothing to do with anything I said.
Either this or you don't understand Christian theology. Christian theology proclaims that Jesus was able to play the role of savior precisely because he was a human who never sinned. But Yahweh wouldn't have needed to go through any such test. So it makes no sense in Christian theology that Yahweh could have saved anyone prior to the price being paid by a supposedly sinless Christ. A price of death which didn't even stick. If Christ paid the wages of sin via his death, then the check bounced in just 3 days.
I don't need to qualify the questions you've bought up because I don't stand behind any of your assertions.
I don't need to "divine" anything. I've simply pointed out why these ancient fables are clearly false. No amount of divination can save them. If Yahweh wasn't fit to be savior prior to fulfilling scripture as you have suggested then he couldn't have been savior prior to having played the role of Jesus. So your suggestions don't help this theology in any case.
[center] Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
William:Have you ever thought that perhaps YHVH and Jesus are the same being?
Divine Insight:That doesn't work because if Yahweh was already the savior in the Old Testament then there would have been no need for him to come to earth posing as his own son and being crucified by humans to supposedly qualify him as savior. He would have already been qualified as savior from the get-go.
William:If that were the case, then you should be able to quantify for the reader as to exactly;
1: How is Yahweh the Savior?
2: Who or what does Yahweh save us from?
Divine Insight: I don't need to qualify anything you've just suggested as none of it reflects my position.
William: I was speaking to the OP questions. If you are going to argue if Yahweh was already the savior in the Old Testament, then you at least should be able to answer the OPQs?
Also - the word I used was quantify. Your proposal does not answer the OPQ's.
Your 'position' doesn't matter, whatever it might be. I was not commenting on your position.
What... you think Christians appeared out of thin air? The first Christians were Jews. The Hebrew Scriptures are glued to their Testament for a reason. That is where their faith originates.
And so to say the God of Israel is only a savior to Israel you are saying he is also the savior for Christians. God hasnt changed his mind. He is still their savior. Only they dont trust him in death. Put a face on him - then they can trust him. He isnt their savior because they want nothing to do with him.
Christians claim to have faith but they have little faith. Faith is said to be a belief in things unseen. Jesus' image, even though its not his real image is important to Christians. So much so that some see his image on french toast. I say its Moses' image they are seeing. No, wait....maybe its Adam. Depends how long you cook. Rediculous
No one has seen Jesus or Moses or Adam. So how do they know its Jesus? They don't. They just want to believe its him.
I think Paul who had literary diarrhoea created the religion, I suspect if it hadn't been for him we might never have heard of that chap, Jesus, if it hadn't been for him. I doubt the world been any worse off it that had been the case.
I would much rather be a goat than a sheep, which are more intelligent and not easily led.
Hence the necessity of a shepherd. Your comment also reveals that it is probably easier to lead sheep than stubborn goats. Sheep can be sheered repeatedly before being slaughtered which would suggest they're more profitable. So shepherds may be a bit more intelligent than goatherds.
