How do they KNOW?

[Elijah John]

There is scant evidence in the Gospels that Jesus was sinless and perfect. By contrast, Jesus perfection is explicitly claimed by the authors of the Epistles.

For debate, how could they possibly know that Jesus was perfect, and never sinned in thought, word or deed? Were they witnesses to his mind? And to his every word and deed from childhood?

Isn't the claim that Jesus was perfect and sinless simply theological speculation?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 17 by tam]

You disparage my listening to HJ scholars. I do so because they approach these questions systematically, and with reason. They take into consideration cultural and religious context. Their arguments make sense to me.

And you, by contrast, seem be claiming superior understanding because you listen to "Christ" and your "Lord" instead.

OK, then, where does "Christ" ever claim sinless perfection? Not Paul on Christ's behalf, but Christ himself.

[Eloi]

I already cited the Scriptures saying Jesus was without sin in your other thread about the same:

Heb. 4:14 Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. 15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.
... 7:26 For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

2 Cor. 5:21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness.

1 Peter 2:22 He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.

I don't understand why you keep insisting on the same even if the Scriptures say so explicitly.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to Elijah John]

It is simple:

If Jesus Christ had committed any sin, the Jews would have easily condemned him and would not have had to make excuses.

Some sins are hidden. Did they have access to his every thought? Coveting is sin. Jesus may well have coveted, and who would have known?

"Sin" from the biblical point of view is not what it seems from our point of view, but what constitutes a violation of the law of God, which at that time was the Mosaic law. Jesus never violated a single mandate of the law, therefore he was without sin.

Honoring parents. Jesus seemed to have a bit of trouble with that one. As well as advising his would-be follower to "let the dead bury their own dead" instead of honoring his father. Advising others to sin, is sin.

John 8:46 Who of YOU convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it YOU do not believe me? 47 He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why YOU do not listen, because YOU are not from God.�

See above. Also, Jesus was accused of violating the Sabbath.

[Eloi]

Jesus was accused of a lot of things, cause Jews wanted to kill him, not because he was actually violating any mandate of the Law. The Scriptures say Jesus was without sin ... why are you trying to contradict what Bible says?

1 John 3:5 YOU know too that that one was made manifest to take away [our] sins, and there is no sin in him.

You (EJ) said:

The only reason it seems that Paul and others claim Jesus was perfect is because Jesus supposed perfection is necessary for Paul's blood atonement theology. Paul's disciples will do anything to protect those flawed doctrines. Including resorting to circular reasoning: "Jesus is perfect because blood sacrifice atonement depends on it. The blood sacrifice atonement works because Jesus is perfect."

... but that is not true. From the "Old Testament" the Messiah is called "the Righteous One (of God)", and it is said that he would bear the sins of many. That teaching did not originate in Paul:

Is. 53:11 Because of his anguish, he will see and be satisfied.
By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant,
Will bring a righteous standing to many people,
And their errors he will bear.
12 For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many,
And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty

It was, actually, a teaching from Jesus himself. He himself spoke many times of his blood and body offered in sacrifice to God on behalf of many, for their sins ... as "the Lamb of God". If Jesus had committed any sin, that sacrifice would not have met the necessary conditions to be accepted by God.

[Elijah John]

Jesus was accused of a lot of things, cause Jews wanted to kill him, not because he was actually violating any mandate of the Law. The Scriptures say Jesus was without sin ... why are you trying to contradict what Bible says?

Because this is a debating site, not a preaching site. And the Bible contradicts itself. This has been demonstrated on this site, over and over and over again.

Again, where does Jesus ever claim sinless perfection, for himself?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 20 by marco]

Using violence or losing your temper is not a violation of the law and therefore not a sin. No one was murdered here.(afawk)

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 20 by marco]

Using violence or losing your temper is not a violation of the law and therefore not a sin. No one was murdered here.(afawk)

Well, sure. If we lower the standard of righteousness, anyone can qualify, even Jesus.


Tcg

[Eloi]

[Replying to post 36 by Tcg]

Which "standard of righteousness"? Atheistic standard?
"Righteousness" is a very relative thing in the atheistic "world".

A "right thing" in US is not right in islamic countries and vice versa. Who can tell God what is righteousness if He is the One who define what is right or is not?

One reason why Jehovah is the rightful Sovereign is because he has the knowledge and wisdom needed to care for the universe. Consider, for example, the fact that God enabled his Son to heal diseases that doctors could not cure. (Matt. 4:23, 24; Mark 5:25-29) From Jehovah’s standpoint, this was no miracle. He understands the processes involved and has the ability to undo any damage. The same is true with regard to his ability to raise the dead and prevent natural disasters. The world under Satan’s influence is still searching for a way to settle national and international disputes. Jehovah alone has the wisdom to bring about world peace. (Isa. 2:3, 4; 54:13) As we learn of Jehovah’s knowledge and wisdom, we feel as did the apostle Paul, who wrote under inspiration the words of today’s text.

O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and beyond tracing out his ways are!—Rom. 11:33.

[Tcg]

"Righteousness" is a very relative thing in the atheistic "world".

Righteousness is a relative thing in the world. Theists pretend otherwise.


Tcg

[Eloi]

True Christians are not part of the world. I know what is right and wrong cause I learned it from the Word of God ... and in this part of the forum is the truth. Bye.