Is the Christian God omnipotent?

[otseng]

There are various definitions for omnipotence, but we'll start with this one:

Omnipotence is the quality of having unlimited power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence

For debate:
Is the Christian God omnipotent?
What evidence/arguments supports or rejects omnipotence?

[otseng]

Therefore we conclude that The Christian god is omnipotent is UNPROVEN.

I can grant this. My ultimate goal is not to prove the Christian God is omnipotent (outside of scriptural support). However, I did want to point out the omnipotence argument cannot disprove the existence of God.

Many arguments against God rely on the assumption that God is omnipotent as defined by something that is not accepted by philosophers or the Bible. That is, skeptics proclaim that an omnipotent God should be able to do anything. Then they point out something God can't do (such as create a rock so big it cannot be lifted) and then conclude such a God cannot exist. I argue this is a strawman argument. The Bible does not support omnipotence in terms of God being able to do anything. Most professional philosophers as well do not accept this definition.

The argument of the problem of pain and evil also relies on God being able to do anything.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then from whence comes evil?

God exists.
God is omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient.
An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence, and knows every way in which those evils could be prevented.
A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
If there exists an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient God, then no evil exists.
Evil exists (logical contradiction).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

If the assumption that omnipotence is being able to do anything is rejected, then the argument of the problem of evil is invalid and it does not prove that God does not exist.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 51 by otseng]

The making rocks too big argument, and other logical objections have always struck me as silly on a few levels.

1. The omnipotent could warp logic far more easily than matter. So, it creates a rock of any size, and then makes an oath that he shall not lift it. Done.

Failing that he could just warp everyones brains so that they know and can prove it, despite objective reality... like getting people to believe magic fruit turns you evil...

The point being, for something all powerful, reality is frail. Logic even more so.

[Diagoras]

Therefore we conclude that The Christian god is omnipotent is UNPROVEN.

I can grant this. My ultimate goal is not to prove the Christian God is omnipotent (outside of scriptural support). However, I did want to point out the omnipotence argument cannot disprove the existence of God.

An interesting approach - as an aside, I admire the method.

From the evil argument:

An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.

Then you posted:

If the assumption that omnipotence is being able to do anything is rejected <...>

I submit that a maximally powerful omnipotent being, even by your (reduced) definition would still logically be more powerful than any evil, and should be able to defeat/reverse it. You dont need the additional logic-warping, rock-lifting capabilities of omnipotence to do that, surely? Having both maximal power (to create and destroy) as well as maximal authority should be sufficient.

So the argument from evil isnt automatically defeated when you use a more diluted definition of omnipotence, I would have thought.

[otseng]

I submit that a maximally powerful omnipotent being, even by your (reduced) definition would still logically be more powerful than any evil, and should be able to defeat/reverse it.

Yes, I agree. If God cannot defeat evil, then God's omnipotence is questionable. However, evil will ultimately be defeated.

[Rev 19:20 KJV] 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[Rev 20:10 KJV] 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to post 54 by otseng]

Pleasing to reach an agreement then, thanks for the chance to practice my logic.

However, evil will ultimately be defeated.

Well, I cant provide any compelling evidence against that...yet.

(Forget who said it, but I often use this quote):

Predictions are difficult - especially ones made about the future.

Perhaps weve both learned that omnipotence is actually quite a tricky concept, and one that doesnt necessarily help further the argument for or against God. Does that sound like a fair summary?

[otseng]

Perhaps weve both learned that omnipotence is actually quite a tricky concept, and one that doesnt necessarily help further the argument for or against God. Does that sound like a fair summary?

Yes. That was pretty easy then. The problem of evil is considered to be the top argument used against the existence of the Christian God. If we've dismantled that argument in just 6 pages of this thread, then it's exceeded my expectations.

On to other threads...

[ttruscott]

- no being could exceed the overall power of an omnipotent being

Wouldn't we have to say:

- no being could exceed or equal the overall power of an omnipotent being

It would be impossible to have two or more equally powerful omnipotent beings. The equal power of the other beings would limit them all to something less than omnipotent.

My goodness, you seem to think this is a prima facie premise but it is not. I ask you to tell how this can be justified, please. How does the power of one limit the power of the other let alone and themselves? <headshake>

[Tcg]

- no being could exceed the overall power of an omnipotent being

Wouldn't we have to say:

- no being could exceed or equal the overall power of an omnipotent being

It would be impossible to have two or more equally powerful omnipotent beings. The equal power of the other beings would limit them all to something less than omnipotent.

My goodness, you seem to think this is a prima facie premise but it is not. I ask you to tell how this can be justified, please. How does the power of one limit the power of the other let alone and themselves? <headshake>

I didn't say it would limit their power. I said it would limit them to something less than omnipotent. If two or more beings have equal power, none could be considered the ultimate ruler.


Tcg

[William]

Tcg: I didn't say it would limit their power. I said it would limit them to something less than omnipotent.

William: But does it? If there are innumerable omnipotent beings, why does their existence make none of them omnipotent?
Surely they are simply equally all omnipotent.

Or are you suggesting that one cannot be all powerful unless one has power over all other entities.

Someone argued with me recently that being all powerful should not be confused with being all knowing.

I can agree with that person if indeed one was all powerful and didn't have control over other all powerful entities and thought that this meant they were not really all powerful, and were not all knowing enough to realize that not having power over other entities did not mean one was not all powerful.

Imagine if two all powerful entities spent an eternity attempting to usurp each other. Could they still be considered omnipotent while also be seen to be exhibiting signs of not being all knowing...

If an all powerful being can resist another all powerful being, then I think it can be considered all powerful.

But if an all powerful being were engaged in constant effort to become supreme ruler of every other all powerful being, that is surely madness...and what business has madness to do with the all powerful...