Your Beliefs

[Soxors]

Well, my name is Jamie and I'm just about fourteen, and I decided to make a subject where people can just tell the rest of the forum what they think about the world. I'm interested in hearing about some other people's philosophies about the meaning of life, and why they think what they do. I guess I'll start, then:

The thing that sets human beings apart from animals is control. We are afraid of the unknown, and anything that we can't understand. One of those things that we can't understand is the meaning of life, and how we came to be. Because it is part of our nature to want to have control over everything, we take a belief, like creationism or evolutionism, so that we can tell ourselves that we 'know' why we are here, and how we came here. I hope you guys get what I'm trying to say.

Anyways, lets hear about everyone else's beliefs!

[Soxors]

How am I able to tell how much control an animal wants?

Humans the only ones to have discovered:

• Fire
• Electricity
• Advanced Shelter
• Religion
• Society
• Unity

That is a marker of intelligence. Not desire to control something. Also, some of the things on your list animals are far better than humans.

Why? Why are we united and controlled, with our society and religion and moral codes and discovories, and the animals aren't?

You say that your hedgehog would want to control the sun. Well, humans destroy animals' habitats. If you hedgehog wants to make it dust all the time, don't you think that animals would want to keep their homes?

The inability to make changes does not remove the desire. This can be applied to humans as well as animals.

So why don't they? Why don't all the bears, and wolves, pop out of the forest when the construction crew gets there and start tearing out throats?

Animals are able to do this, but they don't, because they are not afraid of a lack of control over their enviroment.

We could tear down the whole forest and there would be no animal uprising...because humans want control, and animals don't.

Or ,maybe, they are just more moral than you. Or perhaps they are smart enough to know that they would not have a chance against a bunch of humans with machines and weapons.

No matter how many times you watch it on SciFi, you are not the Beast Master.

Hey, try this one on for size: fuck you.

You're meaning to tell me that if aliens arrived on our planet and started blowing up our cities we'd sit on our asses and do nothing because we don't stand a chance against a bunch of aliens? Bullshit. We'd do everything we possibly could to fight them, no matter how little of a chance we had.

You, like many other people in the world, think humans are smarter than animals because we build shit. We are not smarter than animals, we're just establishmentarians. Discovering fire is a marker of intelligence? We went around banging rocks against shit until one of them made sparks. You think that makes us smarter than animals? Or do you think that we just have the need to figure out everything about our enviroment? We're not smarter, just different.

I bet a hedgehog probably does want to control the sun, but he can't, no matter what. I gave you a situation where animals would want to change something and could, and he doesn't. That proves that animals do not have a desire to be completely in control of their enviroments like humans are.


ALL the itsy-bitsy tiny fucking analogies aside, my theory is proven because animals are not the masters of their enviroments to the extent that they could be. Cats dont bait their prey, even though it is physically possible and it would be beneficial to them. There are THOUSANDS of things that animals could do but they don't because they don't have the desire to control their enviroments the way humans do.

I can tell you're just one of those assholes who wants to argue for no apparent reason, so you can shut the fuck up.

[Cathar1950]

Beavers build dams to control their environment.
I swear I was watching one showing off one afternoon.

[McCulloch]

Moderator Warning

Hey, try this one on for size: **** you.

[...] Bullshit.

[...] the itsy-bitsy tiny ****ing analogies aside, [...]

I can tell you're just one of those ******** who wants to argue for no apparent reason, so you can shut the **** up.

Please read the Debate Forum Intro and Rules.

1. No personal attacks of any sort are allowed.
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[bernee51]

Cats dont bait their prey, even though it is physically possible and it would be beneficial to them. There are THOUSANDS of things that animals could do but they don't because they don't have the desire to control their enviroments the way humans do.

And thn of course along came spear wielding chimps to blow your theory.

[Soxors]

Spear-wielding chimps don't blow my theory yet. If in the future they become complete masters of their enviroment like we are, then my theory is blown. But until then, they're just a chimpanzee who made a spear and has slightly more control over its enviroment.

I AM NOT TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT ANIMALS HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THEIR ENVIROMENTS.

I AM TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT ANIMALS DO NOT DESIRE ULTIMATE CONTROL.

I don't know how I can make that more clear.

[Wyvern]

Spear-wielding chimps don't blow my theory yet. If in the future they become complete masters of their enviroment like we are, then my theory is blown. But until then, they're just a chimpanzee who made a spear and has slightly more control over its enviroment.

I AM NOT TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT ANIMALS HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THEIR ENVIROMENTS.

I AM TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT ANIMALS DO NOT DESIRE ULTIMATE CONTROL.

I don't know how I can make that more clear.

Neither are humans complete masters of our environment. Certainly we can alter bits of it to suit our purposes but as has been pointed out so can a number of other species. As far as your stated message, I can state unequivocally that most humans don't desire absolute control. As far as other species goes it hard to say what they actually desire past the basics since we can not truly communicate with more than a handful of individuals and most of those are apes. It should also be noted that there are a number of insect species(ants, termites, bees et.al.) that exhibit an extreme amount of control over their environment a number of them going so far as to construct it. Humans have made attempts at this level of environmental control(Arco Santi) with little enthusiasm from the public at large.

[WelshBoy]

I AM TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT ANIMALS DO NOT DESIRE ULTIMATE CONTROL

The problem most people are having is how you come to that conclusion? What evidence do you have with regards to the desires of animals?

I would say (and agree with McCulloch) that even though an animal COULD alter its environment, it doesn't have the requisite level of intelligence to do so. I would wager that the more intelligent the creature, the better its control over its environment. I admit I don't have much evidence for this, although the spear-wielding chimp is a good example.

[Lotan]

I would say (and agree with McCulloch) that even though an animal COULD alter its environment, it doesn't have the requisite level of intelligence to do so. I would wager that the more intelligent the creature, the better its control over its environment. I admit I don't have much evidence for this, although the spear-wielding chimp is a good example.

Hi WelshBoy,
No beavers in Wales?

[WelshBoy]

Haha, yes plenty! You've misunderstood me though, I wasn't clear enough in my post, what I meant was that when animals DON'T alter their environment, it's not because they physically can't, or have no desire to, but because they mentally don't know how.

Beavers have the intelligence to be able to build a dam, but not to make boats.

[Lotan]

Beavers have the intelligence to be able to build a dam, but not to make boats.

Right. You need a ferret for that.