The age of miracles

[Athetotheist]

It's not really my intention to make a whole thread out of this; I just mean to pose a question as a point of curiosity: Can anyone refer me to textual evidence that the age of miracles was to end with the passing of the apostles?

[tam]

Peace to you Eloi,

[Replying to tam]
Tam, we, Jehovah's witnesses, believe that the apostles and their followers (Jesus' followers by extension) were the only ones who received the holy spirit from heaven to do those special acts they did (it was in Pentecost in 33, one time event)...

I understand what you believe, Eloi (peace to you!) But what you wrote above is not correct. Pentecost was not a one-time event. We have an example of holy spirit (and gifts of that spirit) being given some time later, to Cornelius and his household as well. Paul also speaks about some of the different gifts of the spirit being given out, as needed.

Not according to our own will. But as Christ knows is needed.

Tell me: where is the community where those (who are doing those powerfull works the apostles did) are? I guess you don't think the real Christians today are isolated, do you?

Well there are very few (a Christian is a person who is anointed with holy spirit), so some might indeed be isolated from other people unless or until Christ leads them to others who belong to Him. But no Christian is ever isolated from Christ; no one who is in Christ is ever truly alone, because He is with that one.


**

I was not sure how to respond to your request to be shown that holy spirit is still being given (and the gifts that go with it) in order for you to believe it is still happening. I was trying to figure out how to respond to that; how to do that even, when my Lord reminded me that we (who belong to Him) are not to go by what we see. We are to walk by faith. We are to go by what we hear (from Him).

He is the Truth and the one to whom God said to listen, yes? If we belong to Him, if we have faith in Him, then we must believe Him. If He teaches something, we can know it is true. Even if we have not (yet) seen it with our eyes. Is that not what faith is? The assured expectation of the things hoped for, (based on) the evident demonstration of things not yet SEEN?


**



I know that the holy spirit is still being given by Christ, dear Eloi, and that means the gifts of the spirit are also still being given (albeit as Christ decides; not as we decide). And there is also an accounting from what is written of holy spirit (and gifts of the spirit) being given. Not once, not twice, not even three times... since Paul wrote to the congregations in Corinth and Ephesians about the gifts OF that spirit as well. To all Christians. Christ FIRST breathed holy spirit upon His apostles (and they received whatever gifts that they were given with that). He then poured out holy spirit upon the people at Pentecost (and they received gifts with that). He then did this again with Cornelius and his household, because of their faith in HIM.

This was not a one time thing; nor even a first century thing.




May anyone who wishes be given ears to hear so as to get a sense of these things; and also hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May anyone who is thirsting, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life!"



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Eloi]

You are right about Cornelius. I didn't mention the case of him and his family because he was a special case, not because I was not taking this case on account. He and his family were the exception, because God wanted to let the apostles know that the time to preach to the gentiles was arrived. But that didn't happened again. The only way any Christian received the spirit after that, was by imposition of the hands.

I am not too comfortable on saying it this way, but the spirit was something that was passed from hand to hand, and evidently it was being used and finally was not working any more ... it ceased to be given.

Think in Jesus blowing the spirit upon his disciples here:

John 20:21 Jesus, therefore, said to them again: “May YOU have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending YOU.� 22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If YOU forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if YOU retain those of any persons, they stand retained.�

Have you thinked why if he was already resurrected he needed to send spirit again from heaven a few days later, when already did? You can get the idea ...

[brianbbs67]

You are right about Cornelius. I didn't mention the case of him and his family because he was a special case, not because I was not taking this case on account. He and his family were the exception, because God wanted to let the apostles know that the time to preach to the gentiles was arrived. But that didn't happened again. The only way any Christian received the spirit after that, was by imposition of the hands.

I am not too comfortable on saying it this way, but the spirit was something that was passed from hand to hand, and evidently it was being used and finally was not working any more ... it ceased to be given.

Think in Jesus blowing the spirit upon his disciples here:

John 20:21 Jesus, therefore, said to them again: “May YOU have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending YOU.� 22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If YOU forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if YOU retain those of any persons, they stand retained.�

Have you thinked why if he was already resurrected he needed to send spirit again from heaven a few days later, when already did? You can get the idea ...

Have you ever wondered why God keeps extending His hand to mankind? God is what He will be. His spirit is available to all. "make your body a place where YHVH can dwell"(lord in most translations )

[Sojournerofthearth]

It's not really my intention to make a whole thread out of this; I just mean to pose a question as a point of curiosity: Can anyone refer me to textual evidence that the age of miracles was to end with the passing of the apostles?

Age of miracles pass? Did God go to sleep? Is he on vacation? What do you call a miracle? If you were a few thousand church people in the plains of Texas and saw a huge tornado coming toward you, and there was no where to go, and as it came closer, it split into 2 tornadoes and went around you, came back together behind you, would that constitute a miracle? Healings? Protection in a storm that was so obvious, that stunned people commented as they passed by your house? Falling from a roof and landing softly on your feet?

Mat 13:58  And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. 

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 1 by Athetotheist]

Its a lie.

[tam]

Peace to you Eloi,

You are right about Cornelius. I didn't mention the case of him and his family because he was a special case, not because I was not taking this case on account.

But Cornelius was not an exception, Eloi, he was the norm (as we can see from the pattern being set: holy spirit to the apostles; again at Pentecost; against with Cornelius; etc...).

Holy spirit was being given to non-Jews in the exact same way that it was being given to Jews.

He and his family were the exception, because God wanted to let the apostles know that the time to preach to the gentiles was arrived. But that didn't happened again. The only way any Christian received the spirit after that, was by imposition of the hands. I am not too comfortable on saying it this way, but the spirit was something that was passed from hand to hand, and evidently it was being used and finally was not working any more ... it ceased to be given.

Holy spirit could be given by laying on of hands (at least by some, though the power came from God through Christ, because Christ is the One who chooses and anoints us). But it is not necessary to lay on hands in order for a person to receive holy spirit.


Christ gives holy spirit (the water of life) to whomever He chooses.

"Many are called, few are chosen."


Those who follow Christ, who are called: these are disciples. Those who are called and chosen (anointed with holy spirit): these are Christians (anointed ones).

Think in Jesus blowing the spirit upon his disciples here:

John 20:21 Jesus, therefore, said to them again: “May YOU have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending YOU.� 22 And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If YOU forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if YOU retain those of any persons, they stand retained.�

Have you thinked why if he was already resurrected he needed to send spirit again from heaven a few days later, when already did? You can get the idea ...

I am not sure I do get your idea.

Christ DID send holy spirit from heaven a little while later (at Pentecost), anointing all who were present. Why would that tell you anything other than the fact that Christ can and does continue (from heaven) to give holy spirit to whomever He chooses?





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Avoice]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

Miracles happen every day. You seem to have left God out of the equation.

What about miracles performed by other faiths? Miracles performed by humans proves nothing. Even the ones Jesus is said to have performed. Miracles arent to be the reason people believe

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 28 by Athetotheist]

Last i knew the native American Indian weren't foretold to be expelled from the land. Then return. And take control of it. I think the paleface are still running things. I dont think the natives took their land back. Or did I miss that election?

No comparison!

[marco]

It's not really my intention to make a whole thread out of this; I just mean to pose a question as a point of curiosity: Can anyone refer me to textual evidence that the age of miracles was to end with the passing of the apostles?

Age of miracles pass? Did God go to sleep? Is he on vacation?

Apparently Paul declared an end of miracles in this prophetic statement:

" But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with...Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love." (1 Cor 13:8-10, 13)

Even accepting - ridiculously - that Paul could prophesy, it seems obvious he's referring to the closing scenes of humanity when the dark glass will be made light and knowledge as we know it will be rendered useless. To attach his words to somewhere in the first century, when knowledge had hardly learned to breathe, leaves one wondering why would any reasonable person accept such silliness. Paul had a fine conceit of himself, but was he so arrogant that he believed, with his passing, an entire age of miracles would end? That puts him a few inches above Jesus who extended the hand of assistance to those that call in his name.

The only reason for thinking miracles stopped in the first century is that we cannot possibly accept miracles attested to by the RC Church, which of course has believed in the continuation of God's wonders till the present day. If one believes in God, one surely accepts he offers miracles, at his discretion, when they are needed. God is surely not restrained by Paul's restrictions.

So we just re-read Paul and take a normal interpretation.

[otseng]

[Replying to post 1 by Athetotheist]

Its a lie.

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