Should Christians keep the law?

[otseng]

From the thread Keeping the commandments:

Do you keep the law?

Questions for debate:
Should Christians keep the law?
If so, how much of the laws should we keep?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 100 by onewithhim]

So, it can't mean what it says because your theology rejects that thing?

It doesn't say what your source says it says. They apply it to literal sacrifices during the Millennium, but that is not what it actually says. And your source CAN'T be right because the Bible teaches that Jesus' final sacrifice was the END of sacrifices. For anyone to say that there will be more sacrifices, they are teaching against what God is telling us in the Scriptures. They are MINIMIZING Jesus sacrifice to almost nothing. I would beware of information like that.

When did Jesus say all sacrifices ended?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 102 by 2timothy316]

They couldn't answer their own question.

"If Christ paid the sacrifice for our sins, why will animal sacrifice continue in the future?"

How about you on this? Can you answer their question?

If you don't think their question is legitimate, how do you explain the verses they claim say there will be animal sacrifices in the future?

[later edit]:

I posted the above before I had read other recent posts.

They have effectively answered my questions!

i am therefore withdrawing them as such, so I no longer expect your answers, unless you want to clarify or add anything.

Too quick off the mark - my bad.

The sacrifices were only for Unintentional sin(transgressing the law by accident). Jesus was for Intentional sin. Sin continues,, its not like we stopped when forgiven. The main reason they will return is Ezekiel and Isaiah said God said they would. If we believe God said it, it will come true. Since God follows the rules and prophets He gave. In fact the OT tells how God does nothing He has not told His prophets.

[JehovahsWitness]

Since God follows the rules and prophets He gave. In fact the OT tells how God does nothing He has not told His prophets.

Ezekiel restoration temple (not to be confused with the Great spiritual temple) had s spiritual significance that related to the restoration of true worship in the present "last days" (namely 20th, 21st century) and is not an assurance that animal sacrifices were to be reinstigated and continue forever. Although the vision would have been immensely encouraging to the Jewish exiles, it did not directly concern them or their efforts to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem (The restoration temple was too large even to fit on Mount Moriah).

Animal sacrifices were a shadow of the reality which was Christ. To return to them would be like marrying a woman's shadow instead of the flesh and blood reality. An insult if ever there was one.

[brianbbs67]

Since God follows the rules and prophets He gave. In fact the OT tells how God does nothing He has not told His prophets.

Ezekiel restoration temple (not to be confused with the Great spiritual temple) had s spiritual significance that related to the restoration of true worship in the present "last days" (namely 20th, 21st century) and is not an assurance that animal sacrifices were to be reinstigated and continue forever. Although the vision would have been immensely encouraging to the Jewish exiles, it did not directly concern them or their efforts to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem (The restoration temple was too large even to fit on Mount Moriah).

Animal sacrifices were a shadow of the reality which was Christ. To return to them would be like marrying a woman's shadow instead of the flesh and blood reality. An insult if ever there was one.

Since the event of the new temple has not arrived, what is a shadow of things to come and waning, still is.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 100 by onewithhim]

So, it can't mean what it says because your theology rejects that thing?

It doesn't say what your source says it says. They apply it to literal sacrifices during the Millennium, but that is not what it actually says. And your source CAN'T be right because the Bible teaches that Jesus' final sacrifice was the END of sacrifices. For anyone to say that there will be more sacrifices, they are teaching against what God is telling us in the Scriptures. They are MINIMIZING Jesus sacrifice to almost nothing. I would beware of information like that.

When did Jesus say all sacrifices ended?

Let's see.....he said that he came to fulfill the Law (which demanded sacrifices), so when he died that was fulfilling the Law's demand for sin offerings. (Matt.5:17) The Law specified how to make sacrifices for sin that Jehovah would accept. But those sin offerings were not the end of it. Those sacrifices had to be done over and over, year after year. All that was actually a preview of the real thing. It brought people's attention forward to the actual fulfillment of the sin offering that would finally be acceptable to take away mankind's sins. Jesus said he would do that.

"The Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many." (Matthew 20:28)

So, according to Jesus, he fulfilled the Law's requirements for taking away the sins of the people. There is nothing else to contradict this. Anything beyond his sacrifice is a twisted teaching. It would be totally insulting to once again sacrifice animals to God for mankind's sins.

Now, what is the objection to Paul's teaching? Wasn't he hand-picked by Jesus? Who can dispute what he says about Jesus' "everlasting deliverance" for us? (Hebrews 9:12) Why would anyone want to dispute that?

Those people who say the sacrifices will be restored are totally unfamiliar with deep spiritual things, and are skating on the surface of very shallow understandings. They confuse what happened 2,500 years ago with what is to take place in the near future. What Jehovah required of Israel BACK THEN is what the passages about sacrifices are referring to.


"When Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have already taken place, he passed through the greater and more perfect tent [or, temple] not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. He entered into the holy place, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time, and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us....This was not done to offer himself often, as when the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood that is not his own....But now he [Christ] has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself." (Heb.9:11,12,25,26)

His sacrifice was FOR ALL TIME. There is no need to sacrifice any more animals. To do so would be totally minimizing Christ's ransom sacrifice and deeming it insufficient.


.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 111 by brianbbs67]

No, Jesus didn't die for intentional sin. The Scriptures are clear on that. Both Paul and John commented on that.

"As regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame." (Heb.6:4-6)

That involves intentional sin, and Jesus will have none of that. Paul goes on to explain:

"If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. How much greater PUNISHMENT do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of grace with contempt?" (Heb.10:26-29)

Clearly, someone who deliberately practices sin (intentional) is not covered by Christ's sacrifice. He is in deep trouble.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 111 by brianbbs67]

No, Jesus didn't die for intentional sin. The Scriptures are clear on that. Both Paul and John commented on that.

"As regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame." (Heb.6:4-6)

That involves intentional sin, and Jesus will have none of that. Paul goes on to explain:

"If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. How much greater PUNISHMENT do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of grace with contempt?" (Heb.10:26-29)

Clearly, someone who deliberately practices sin (intentional) is not covered by Christ's sacrifice. He is in deep trouble.

This is what I was getting at, specifically. Thank you for pointing it out. Have you sinned after learning the truth? Sin is defined for us as trangressing the law. Do you keep the Sabbath?

Are you saying if we ever lie, cheat or steal after accepting Christ, there is no forgiveness? Only an expectation of judgement? This is what scripture says.

I accepted him at 13 on 11/11/79. I can assure you I sinned with the worst of them for the next 10 years. I still find myself falling short every once in a while, although much rarer than then.

So, if we believe the literal words of the bible, there is no hope for 99.9% of the world. As they/we never stop sinning.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 111 by brianbbs67]

No, Jesus didn't die for intentional sin. The Scriptures are clear on that. Both Paul and John commented on that.

"As regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame." (Heb.6:4-6)

That involves intentional sin, and Jesus will have none of that. Paul goes on to explain:

"If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. How much greater PUNISHMENT do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of grace with contempt?" (Heb.10:26-29)

Clearly, someone who deliberately practices sin (intentional) is not covered by Christ's sacrifice. He is in deep trouble.

This is what I was getting at, specifically. Thank you for pointing it out. Have you sinned after learning the truth? Sin is defined for us as trangressing the law. Do you keep the Sabbath?

Are you saying if we ever lie, cheat or steal after accepting Christ, there is no forgiveness? Only an expectation of judgement? This is what scripture says.

I accepted him at 13 on 11/11/79. I can assure you I sinned with the worst of them for the next 10 years. I still find myself falling short every once in a while, although much rarer than then.

So, if we believe the literal words of the bible, there is no hope for 99.9% of the world. As they/we never stop sinning.

Of course I have sinned, as have all of us. Scripture says that if anyone says he does not sin, he is a liar (I John 1:8-10). That is why Jesus died for us. We UN-intentionally sin every day, and that is the sin we inherited from Adam (Romans 5:12,18,19). We do not INTENTIONALLY sin.

"We know that everyone who has been born from God does not PRACTICE sin." (I John 5:18)


You asked, do I keep the Sabbath? No.There is no instruction in the N.T. for us to do so. I personally feel that Christians are in "God's rest," and so every day I try to keep my mind on Jehovah and live the way He would want me to.

"Your [Israel's] forefathers put me to the test and tried me, despite seeing my works for 40 years. This is why I became disgusted with this generation and said: 'They always go astray in their hearts, and they have not come to know my ways.' So I swore in my anger: 'They will not enter into my rest.'"(Hebrews 3:9-11)

"We who have exercised faith DO enter into the rest." (Heb.4:3)

Jehovah's rest day is the 7th "day," after the 6 "days" of creation, and it is still going on. Now Christians only have to respect His "day" of rest and live according to His will, which we can discern from the Christian Greek Scriptures.

"So there remains a sabbath-rest for the people of God. For the man who has entered into God's rest has also rested from his own works." (Heb.4:9,10)

So keeping the Sabbath of the Law given to Moses is not necessary for the Christian. We are "in His rest 'day,'" which began thousands of years ago and is still on-going.


If we lie, cheat, steal, or the like, we are not necessarily unable to be forgiven. It is only when we willfully and deliberately PRACTICE sin, without repenting, that we are not forgiven. If repentance is there, God freely forgives. (I don't think you understand those verses in Hebrews that I quoted about the sins that are not covered by Christ's sacrifice. There is a huge difference between a weakness--a slip-up--and intentional sin. I assume that you asked for forgiveness after your 10 years of acting up. God forgives a contrite heart. We all fall short every day, most of which we aren't really aware of. We ask for forgiveness every day. Those people who deliberately sin and never ask for forgiveness are the ones who are not covered by Christ's blood.


Did I offer you a Bible study? It's free and very interesting! It's online, and you can go at your own speed. There are even videos. Check it out, please. www.jw.org

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 111 by brianbbs67]

No, Jesus didn't die for intentional sin. The Scriptures are clear on that. Both Paul and John commented on that.

"As regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame." (Heb.6:4-6)

That involves intentional sin, and Jesus will have none of that. Paul goes on to explain:

"If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. How much greater PUNISHMENT do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of grace with contempt?" (Heb.10:26-29)

Clearly, someone who deliberately practices sin (intentional) is not covered by Christ's sacrifice. He is in deep trouble.

This is what I was getting at, specifically. Thank you for pointing it out. Have you sinned after learning the truth? Sin is defined for us as trangressing the law. Do you keep the Sabbath?

Are you saying if we ever lie, cheat or steal after accepting Christ, there is no forgiveness? Only an expectation of judgement? This is what scripture says.

I accepted him at 13 on 11/11/79. I can assure you I sinned with the worst of them for the next 10 years. I still find myself falling short every once in a while, although much rarer than then.

So, if we believe the literal words of the bible, there is no hope for 99.9% of the world. As they/we never stop sinning.

Of course I have sinned, as have all of us. Scripture says that if anyone says he does not sin, he is a liar (I John 1:8-10). That is why Jesus died for us. We UN-intentionally sin every day, and that is the sin we inherited from Adam (Romans 5:12,18,19). We do not INTENTIONALLY sin.

"We know that everyone who has been born from God does not PRACTICE sin." (I John 5:18)


You asked, do I keep the Sabbath? No.There is no instruction in the N.T. for us to do so. I personally feel that Christians are in "God's rest," and so every day I try to keep my mind on Jehovah and live the way He would want me to.

"Your [Israel's] forefathers put me to the test and tried me, despite seeing my works for 40 years. This is why I became disgusted with this generation and said: 'They always go astray in their hearts, and they have not come to know my ways.' So I swore in my anger: 'They will not enter into my rest.'"(Hebrews 3:9-11)

"We who have exercised faith DO enter into the rest." (Heb.4:3)

Jehovah's rest day is the 7th "day," after the 6 "days" of creation, and it is still going on. Now Christians only have to respect His "day" of rest and live according to His will, which we can discern from the Christian Greek Scriptures.

"So there remains a sabbath-rest for the people of God. For the man who has entered into God's rest has also rested from his own works." (Heb.4:9,10)

So keeping the Sabbath of the Law given to Moses is not necessary for the Christian. We are "in His rest 'day,'" which began thousands of years ago and is still on-going.


If we lie, cheat, steal, or the like, we are not necessarily unable to be forgiven. It is only when we willfully and deliberately PRACTICE sin, without repenting, that we are not forgiven. If repentance is there, God freely forgives. (I don't think you understand those verses in Hebrews that I quoted about the sins that are not covered by Christ's sacrifice. There is a huge difference between a weakness--a slip-up--and intentional sin. I assume that you asked for forgiveness after your 10 years of acting up. God forgives a contrite heart. We all fall short every day, most of which we aren't really aware of. We ask for forgiveness every day. Those people who deliberately sin and never ask for forgiveness are the ones who are not covered by Christ's blood.


Did I offer you a Bible study? It's free and very interesting! It's online, and you can go at your own speed. There are even videos. Check it out, please. www.jw.org

.
Let's do this slowly. Sin is defined as breaking God's law. You and I have done this. There is not other definition. But, The verse you quoted definitely tell us/me that we are screwed. No one can quit sinning in this world. Don't get me wrong, I am in the same place. I do sin less. But, I am not sinless.

Thank you for the offer of bible study. I have spent years dissecting the bible. I still see truth there. But need no help other than God's.

In short, I follow God and nothing else. This belief we have of the veracity of scripture is a bit mis placed. I wish it wasn't. I really do. But it is what it is.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 118 by brianbbs67]

You didn't notice from the Scriptures that there are two types of sin? There is INTENTIONAL and there is UNINTENTIONAL sin.

Intentional sin is practicing things that one knows are wicked in the sight of God but does them anyway---without remorse.

Unintentional sin is the sin we inherited from Adam, through our DNA. It is the sin that God deemed would be covered over by Christ's sacrifice. (Romans 5:12,18,19) If you might recall, I cited a couple scriptures from Hebrews that show that Jesus' sacrifice doesn't cover deliberate sins. (Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

Do you think that if you really read people's posts and thought about them, you might learn something?

Have a pleasurable day.