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Checkpoint
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:05 pm  God's truth about hell Reply with quote

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:
Quote:


Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?



Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:54 pm
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Re: God's truth about hell

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PinSeeker wrote:

But it can be a filial fear (drawing from the Latin concept from which we get the idea of family). It refers to the fear that a child has for his father. In this regard, we can think of a child who has tremendous respect and love for his father or mother and who dearly wants to please them. He has a fear or an anxiety of offending the one he loves, not because he’s afraid of torture or even of punishment, but rather because he’s afraid of displeasing the one who is, in that child’s world, the source of security and love.

So, depending on the person and where he stands in relation to God and His great salvation, either one or the other of the above is true.

Grace and peace to you, DI.


The problem I see here is that the 'fear' of letting someone down that you love is hardly fear at all. In fact, if the person you love truly loves you any fear along those lines would be totally uncalled for.

Of course you could argue that if you were evil-minded and wanted to do truly evil things that would do far more than merely let down your loved ones. Then you'd be talking actual fear. But in that case you most likely would also expect to potentially suffer great pain from having chosen to do horrible things that you know you shouldn't be doing.

My point is, that unless you are an evil person there is no reason to fear a loving God.

Surely you wouldn't fear letting a God down by merely being imperfect? Think

What kind of a God would expect you to be perfect in the first place?

There are also other factors that need to be taken into consideration. Suppose your parents worked very hard overtime to send you to a college. But try as you might you simply couldn't make the grade. No fault of your own. You tried your very best but simply couldn't keep up with the pace and load that the college was demanding of you.

What then? You've let down the people you love, but not due to any fault of your own. Especially not due to any intention to fail. For whatever reason you just couldn't grasp the academic material well enough to make the grade. Perhaps there was even other factors as well. Maybe you even had some sort of diagnosed learning disability.

Surely a loving parent isn't going to hold it against you knowing that you tried your best? And a God would certainly know that you did indeed try your best.

In fact, for the very reason that a God is supposedly omniscient is all the more reason to not fear God. You would have more to fear from an earthly father who might no accept that you tried your best and instead blame you for supposedly not working hard enough. A human parent may not be wise enough to understand that perhaps you had a learning disability?

In fact, you can't even compare a God with mere moral humans.

A God supposedly knows what's in your heart. That's something that no mere mortal man can ever hope to know.

So unless you have an evil heart, why would you ever fear that you might let God down?

When talking about a God and having any sort of fear of what the God might think of you or judge you simply makes no sense.

A God that you need to fear that you might displease by accident is a God that you cannot trust.

A God that you need to fear because you aren't perfect, is a God that you cannot trust.

Moreover, how could a God who did not create you to be perfect expect you to be perfect?

The bottom line is that the entire scenario of a God who is going to pass judgement on you makes no sense. Especially if he is limited to only one of two choices. Either accept you into heaven or cast you into hell.

Clearly any religion that forces this kind of extreme choice onto a judgemental God cannot be true.

The God supposedly created you and now he must chose whether to allow you into eternal paradise or cast you into hell with no other options available to him?

And he needs to cast you into hell if he's merely disappointed in you because you weren't perfect?

Tell me that makes sense?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:37 pm
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The only possible indication of the location of hell in the Bible is that it is in "outer darkness:"

Quote:
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 22:13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:30)

Terms such as "cast" and "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" imply that these verses are references to hell:

Quote:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

If these verses do refer to hell, then hell is located in outer darkness. But what does "outer darkness" mean?

If the universe is infinite, one can travel from any point in the universe infinitely in any direction and never reach the end of the universe.

Consequently, outer and inner have no meaning to mankind as locations within our universe.

"Outer darkness" probably indicates the state of death. That is, the darkest of dark, without any light or cognizance. After all, the dead know not anything:

Quote:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Indeed, "outer darkness" is a good description of hell as regards man, since all men cast into the lake of firel are quickly burned to death. This is their second death and the end of their existence forever -- thus outer darkness!

==============================================

There are numerous verses indicating that hell is a real place:

Quote:
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Matthew 5:30)

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12:5)

Hell is in existence presently. The only "inmates" currently are the angels which sinned:

Quote:
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (II Peter 2:4)

Four words were translated from the original scriptures as hell in the King James Version of the Bible. They are:

Hades and Sheol - The Hebrew word sheol in the Old Testament corresponds to the Greek word Hades in the New Testament.

Gehenna - This Greek word referred to the garbage dump in the valley of Hinnon outside of Jerusalem. Fires were maintained constantly in the dump to burn garbage and prevent disease. Thus the association of Gehenna hell with everlasting fire.

Tartaroo - This Greek word is found only once in the Bible in 2 Peter 2:4. It means to throw into or imprison in Tartarus. Tartarus was thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was administered upon fallen angels:

Quote:
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Tartaroo), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (II Peter 2:4)

If these four words refer to hell, one might assume that in all occurrences they would be translated as hell. That is not the case. Sheol for example, is translated thirty-one times as "hell," thirty-one times as "grave," and three times as "pit" in the King James Version of the Bible.

Therefore, it is obvious that the translators allowed their understanding of the context in which the original words were used to sway their word selection in the translated version.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:56 pm
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Re: God's truth about hell

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Divine Insight wrote:

Tell me that makes sense?

Yeah, not much of what you say makes much sense at all, really. A lot of what you say here is case in point. It's a lot like myth-one, but in a different way. But I can help... Smile

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:42 pm
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PinSeeker wrote:

Divine Insight wrote:

Tell me that makes sense?

Yeah, not much of what you say makes much sense at all, really.


That's easy to say. Care to back it up with rational explanations?


PinSeeker wrote:

A lot of what you say here is case in point. It's a lot like myth-one, but in a different way. But I can help... Smile


What can you help?

Keep in mind that you are the one who needs to convince me that I need to be in fear of disappointing a God.

In the meantime you have already argued that your God is prepared to cast you into hell for the most petty of infractions. Otherwise why would you fear failing him?

Are you planning on doing something that's truly unforgivable? Think

I don't see how you can argue that we should fear a just decent God. Even in the way that you have suggested. I wouldn't fear failing my parents. After all, if I failed them it would only be because I couldn't do otherwise. Why should I feel bad about any limitations I might have? And why should I fear a truly loving parent who would reject me for having done the best I can do but failed to achieve the desired goal?

Perhaps your entire theological premise is that you should be able to achieve anything, and if you fail at anything it can only be your fault. That's a pretty self-confident goal isn't it? You could set yourself up for extreme disappointment where you not only feel that you have failed your parents and your God, but where you even feel as though you have failed yourself. All because you never really had a chance to succeed at what you thought they expected of you anyway.

That's a pretty dark corner to paint yourself into.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:09 am
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Divine Insight wrote:

That's easy to say. Care to back it up with rational explanations?

I would gladly do so, but your refusal to listen is tiring. But I will if you like (as I have even up to now).

PinSeeker wrote:

What can you help?

Um, you're "understandings." But really, for this help to be effectual, you have to be able to accept the help in the first place; that's on you.

PinSeeker wrote:

Keep in mind that you are the one who needs to convince me that I need to be in fear of disappointing a God.

Ah! No, I don't need to convince you of anything. I can tell you, and I can clarify things for you, but it's the Holy Spirit that would truly convince you of the things of God. And He would do so -- or not -- according to the will and purpose of the Father. For me, it's very freeing; it's not on me to say just the right thing(s). So, yeah, hey, I can give it a go, and am happy to do so. I like talking about the Lord. Smile

PinSeeker wrote:

In the meantime you have already argued that your God is prepared to cast you into hell for the most petty of infractions.

Ohhhhhhh. No sin is "petty." No. Nope.

PinSeeker wrote:

I don't see how you can argue that we should fear a just decent God.

As I have said, you're understanding of Godly fear is extremely limited. I think it's not, now, because I'm sure you have the ability to fully comprehend what I said, but yet you still dismiss at least half of it. And God is not merely "decent." He's holy. Smile

PinSeeker wrote:

Perhaps your entire theological premise is that you should be able to achieve anything, and if you fail at anything it can only be your fault.

This is wholly antithetical to the Bible and to what I've been saying. Surely you begin to see what I mean by "refusal to listen."

Grace and peace to you, DI.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:34 pm
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[Replying to post 22 by myth-one.com]

Thanks for a good summary of hell in Scripture.

Quote:
There are numerous verses indicating that hell is a real place:


Not quite.

Hell is commonly thought of as a place, but what those verses indicate is that hell (for humans) is an event rather than a place.

That event will take place at the final Judgment. It is the pronouncement of, and the carrying out of, eternal punishment.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:03 pm
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Checkpoint wrote:

myth-one wrote:

There are numerous verses indicating that hell is a real place:

Not quite.

Yes, quite. I'm in agreement with myth-one, here... for once, at least... Smile

Checkpoint wrote:

Hell is commonly thought of as a place, but what those verses indicate is that hell (for humans) is an event rather than a place.

No, the Judgment is an event, rather than a place, but hell is clearly a place of "outer darkness," unending judgment, eternal punishment, and everlasting personal anguish ("torment').

Checkpoint wrote:

That event will take place at the final Judgment. It is the pronouncement of, and the carrying out of, eternal punishment.

Well, at the conclusion of the event called the Judgment, those on the figurative left of Jesus will depart from Him and be sent away into a real place described as being of, or containing, respectively, "outer darkness," unending judgment, eternal punishment, and everlasting persona anguish. It cannot be described accurately any other way.

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:55 pm
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Re: God's truth about hell

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PinSeeker wrote:

Um, you're "understandings." But really, for this help to be effectual, you have to be able to accept the help in the first place; that's on you.


I see. So you understand things and I don't. Rolling Eyes

I hope you have some rational explanations to back this up.

PinSeeker wrote:

Ah! No, I don't need to convince you of anything.


Oh, but you absolutely do if you claim that there is something I don't understand. It's now on you to make your points understandable.

PinSeeker wrote:

I can tell you, and I can clarify things for you, but it's the Holy Spirit that would truly convince you of the things of God. And He would do so -- or not -- according to the will and purpose of the Father.


Hiding behind an imaginary Holy Spirit or God won't do you any good. Besides are you tying to insinuate that if there is a creator God that I'm not already in complete harmony with God? That would be an extreme judgement on your part would it not?

Have you happened to notice that my position on things says nothing about your relationship with any Gods, real or imagined.

But your argument requires that I am in the doghouse with your God. Rolling Eyes

This already places your argument on a level of pious arrogance that we shouldn't even need to have to deal with when having intellectual debates.

In short, you have already deluded yourself in thinking that some God is on 'your side' of the debate. Rolling Eyes

You'd be far better off learning how to avoid that delusion at all cost.


PinSeeker wrote:

For me, it's very freeing; it's not on me to say just the right thing(s). So, yeah, hey, I can give it a go, and am happy to do so. I like talking about the Lord.


If you truly believed that everything was in God's hands then why would you even care what people believe? You just proclaimed that God can take care of all that.

This is the oxymoron of evangelism. Evangelism is actually nothing more than a exhibition of extreme distrust in God to be able to deal with anything on his own.

So far all you have accomplished is to proclaim that your God wants me to be confused and to not understand him. But what kind of a benevolent God would ever do such a nasty things? Think

If God wants me to understand something that should be a piece of cake for him. And if he doesn't want me to understand, then he can only be evil. Moreover, if there is anything I truly do not understand, then it certainly couldn't be held against me for not understanding it.

PinSeeker wrote:

Ohhhhhhh. No sin is "petty." No. Nope.


Who taught you to believe such an insane thing?

Do you realize that what you are saying here is that if little Suzie take a cookie from the cookie jar that she had been told by her mother not to eat, that she deserve eternal damnation for having eaten a freshly baked cookie her mother told her to eat?

And that even if Suzie confesses that she took the cookie when her mother asks her if she took it, that doesn't matter. The sin has already been committed and demand eternal damnation in hell.

I understand that this is what you have been taught to believe. But why have you accepted this obvious nonsense? That's the real question here.

PinSeeker wrote:

As I have said, you're understanding of Godly fear is extremely limited. I think it's not, now, because I'm sure you have the ability to fully comprehend what I said, but yet you still dismiss at least half of it. And God is not merely "decent." He's holy.


But you have just required that your God is extremely evil. If I am misunderstanding something here, and God has the ability to correct my misunderstanding but doesn't do so, then he is guilty of allowing me to continue to misunderstand things that could have dire consequences on my eternal fate.

That would hardly be a decent or holy God. Heck, even I as a mere mortal man would be more than happy to help someone understand something that could result in their eternal damnation. Yet, you must necessarily argue that your God refuses to do this. This would make your God far less decent and benevolent than me.

PinSeeker wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps your entire theological premise is that you should be able to achieve anything, and if you fail at anything it can only be your fault.


This is wholly antithetical to the Bible and to what I've been saying. Surely you begin to see what I mean by "refusal to listen."


But this is contrary to what you had previously preached. You had previously preached that we should fear God in the same way that we might fear offending our own loved ones.

If innocent failings don't count as being offensive, then what's to fear?

Do you do things on purpose to offend God? Think

If not, then what's to fear?

I'm listening to what you say. You just aren't being consistent in your arguments.

What is to fear from a benevolent loving God who wants you to succeed and who won't hold honest failings against you?

If I thought such a God existed I would be thrilled. There would then be nothing to fear unless I purposefully chose to rebel against that God and purposefully offend him. But if I did that, then I would indeed be an evil person.

And then the question would be, "If God had created me and designed my brain, then how in the world did I even become evil?"

There would also be the question, "Why is it that this God cannot be trusted to protect me from evil?"

I mean, at that point I would have a whole list of questions for this God.

In fact, this brings us back to your argument. You argue that God and his Holy Spirit are more than capable of conveying to me an understanding of all these things. It that's true, then what is God waiting for? Is he just being mean to me or what? There would be no justification for not clearing up these questions for me.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:34 am
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[quote="PinSeeker"]
Checkpoint wrote:

myth-one wrote:

There are numerous verses indicating that hell is a real place:

Not quite.

Yes, quite. I'm in agreement with myth-one, here... for once, at least... Smile

Checkpoint wrote:

Hell is commonly thought of as a place, but what those verses indicate is that hell (for humans) is an event rather than a place.

Quote:
No, the Judgment is an event, rather than a place, but hell is clearly a place of "outer darkness," unending judgment, eternal punishment, and everlasting personal anguish ("torment').


Not even one of those you listed is a place. Each results from what you agree will be an event.

Checkpoint wrote:

That event will take place at the final Judgment. It is the pronouncement of, and the carrying out of, eternal punishment.

Quote:
Well, at the conclusion of the event called the Judgment, those on the figurative left of Jesus will depart from Him and be sent away into a real place described as being of, or containing, respectively, "outer darkness," unending judgment, eternal punishment, and everlasting persona anguish. It cannot be described accurately any other way.


"be sent away to a real place...containing", is not found in Scripture.

It therefore does not belong in any accurate description.

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

May the Lord bless you and keep you, Pinseeker.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 30: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:42 am
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PinSeeker wrote:

Well, at the conclusion of the event called the Judgment, those on the figurative left of Jesus will depart from Him and be sent away into a real place described as being of, or containing, respectively, "outer darkness," unending judgment, eternal punishment, and everlasting persona anguish. It cannot be described accurately any other way.


Judgment is a one time event which has an end.

You claim above that at the end of judgment, those on the left will go into a place of unending judgment.

Please explain how judgment as used in the scriptures has an end, while being unending?

==================================================

Where is "everlasting personal anguish" ever mentioned in the scriptures as being applied to mankind?

Please quote verses which apply.

==================================================

The only being identified as being tormented day and night for ever and ever in the Bibles I have read is the devil:

Revelation 20:10 wrote:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That is because he is an immortal spirit and cannot be hurt or killed by the fire.

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