Thought experiment regarding free will

[Celsus]

Let's assume there are two identical universes (like carbon copies or clones).

In both of them exists 'John'. Both Johns have experienced exactly the same things in exactly the same situations at exactly the same time. They feel and think exactly the same up to that point. And they are now both faced with an identical question (like, I dunno, 'do I want to become a missionary?' or 'do you I want to steal that wallet?').

Could they give different answers? Please explain why or why not in your comments.

Thank you.

[Cathar1950]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

I agree.

But what if, at a quantum level, they were different, and, at the quantum scale, everything became unpredictable and random, as it appears to be in our universe? Would differences at the quantum level affect the two universes enough to influence John's decision or even affect his creation?

The butterfly effect?
It would seem at the quantum level it is one thing but at the level we actually live in starting bottom up by the time we have an event things are pretty well determined.
They may be unpredictable but I am not sure probability is random.
Following Whitehead causality is more a process or event and not some simple cause/effect relationship.
We can see the cause after the fact not before.

I was trying to explain how everything is determined but not predetermined.

[Celsus]

It is not that we don't have choice or responsibility. Those choices and responsibility are all determined by what we have learned and conditioned, including reason which is another factor or condition. Try not to think.
Predetermined is not the same as determined.

I agree! A subtle, but important, difference.

[Celsus]

Let's assume there are two identical universes (like carbon copies or clones).

In both of them exists 'John'. Both Johns have experienced exactly the same things in exactly the same situations at exactly the same time. They feel and think exactly the same up to that point. And they are now both faced with an identical question (like, I dunno, 'do I want to become a missionary?' or 'do you I want to steal that wallet?').

Could they give different answers? Please explain why or why not in your comments.

Thank you.

I can give you my short answer. No.

If it were possible, the two universes would have diverged long before John arrived at this point.

But you're changing the premise of the thought experiment.

Please re-read my first post and answer THAT question. Thank you.

[Celsus]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

I agree.

But what if, at a quantum level, they were different, and, at the quantum scale, everything became unpredictable and random, as it appears to be in our universe? Would differences at the quantum level affect the two universes enough to influence John's decision or even affect his creation?

The assumption was that EVERYTHING was identical. That would include the quantum level.

[Celsus]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

I agree.

But what if, at a quantum level, they were different, and, at the quantum scale, everything became unpredictable and random, as it appears to be in our universe? Would differences at the quantum level affect the two universes enough to influence John's decision or even affect his creation?

The butterfly effect?
It would seem at the quantum level it is one thing but at the level we actually live in starting bottom up by the time we have an event things are pretty well determined.
They may be unpredictable but I am not sure probability is random.
Following Whitehead causality is more a process or event and not some simple cause/effect relationship.
We can see the cause after the fact not before.

I was trying to explain how everything is determined but not predetermined.

And randomness doesn't help free will anyway.

[Homicidal_Cherry53]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

I agree.

But what if, at a quantum level, they were different, and, at the quantum scale, everything became unpredictable and random, as it appears to be in our universe? Would differences at the quantum level affect the two universes enough to influence John's decision or even affect his creation?

The assumption was that EVERYTHING was identical. That would include the quantum level.

In that case, the two universes would not diverge.

And randomness doesn't help free will anyway.

I would argue that randomness, is in fact the only way to have free will. In order to have free will, you have to be independent from causality and the only way to be independent from causality is to have the ability to make a truly random choice. Any other choice would be influenced by past experience and the way the mind is structured, both of which lead back to determinism.

[Cathar1950]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

I agree.

But what if, at a quantum level, they were different, and, at the quantum scale, everything became unpredictable and random, as it appears to be in our universe? Would differences at the quantum level affect the two universes enough to influence John's decision or even affect his creation?

The assumption was that EVERYTHING was identical. That would include the quantum level.

In that case, the two universes would not diverge.

And randomness doesn't help free will anyway.

I would argue that randomness, is in fact the only way to have free will. In order to have free will, you have to be independent from causality and the only way to be independent from causality is to have the ability to make a truly random choice. Any other choice would be influenced by past experience and the way the mind is structured, both of which lead back to determinism.

Even random events don't guarantee free-will because even the random event determine the will or as I like to call it, a response.
Do those random events become part of the causality?
If they are random events does it mean they have no cause for it seems if something is not determined it doesn't have a cause, but then I wonder what would be the effect?
It seems will is being equated with choice of response but I see nothing free about it.
We learn most of our responses and some come from just being animals that live in culture and learn language.

[Celsus]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

I agree.

But what if, at a quantum level, they were different, and, at the quantum scale, everything became unpredictable and random, as it appears to be in our universe? Would differences at the quantum level affect the two universes enough to influence John's decision or even affect his creation?

The assumption was that EVERYTHING was identical. That would include the quantum level.

In that case, the two universes would not diverge.

Imagine them as two separate universes which are totally identical though 'inside'.

And randomness doesn't help free will anyway.

I would argue that randomness, is in fact the only way to have free will. In order to have free will, you have to be independent from causality and the only way to be independent from causality is to have the ability to make a truly random choice. Any other choice would be influenced by past experience and the way the mind is structured, both of which lead back to determinism.

But a random choice wouldn't be a deliberate, conscious and (im)moral decision, right?

[ilovereligionlots]

[img]http://www.funnyforumpics.com"]

[G0DcanSmyD]

I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.

I agree.

But what if, at a quantum level, they were different, and, at the quantum scale, everything became unpredictable and random, as it appears to be in our universe? Would differences at the quantum level affect the two universes enough to influence John's decision or even affect his creation?

The assumption was that EVERYTHING was identical. That would include the quantum level.

In that case, the two universes would not diverge.

Imagine them as two separate universes which are totally identical though 'inside'.

And randomness doesn't help free will anyway.

I would argue that randomness, is in fact the only way to have free will. In order to have free will, you have to be independent from causality and the only way to be independent from causality is to have the ability to make a truly random choice. Any other choice would be influenced by past experience and the way the mind is structured, both of which lead back to determinism.

But a random choice wouldn't be a deliberate, conscious and (im)moral decision, right?

well... If you had two universes with the EXACT same composition it doesn't mean that the will be exactly the same. Probability and chance come into play, unless of course your universes have zero movement. Uncontrollable changes will occur unless you make each universe's composition one particle, and even then they won't be the exact same if the particle isn't moving in the exact same direction with an identical velocity. If those situations aren't true there will be interactions between even just two particles, atoms, quarks (whatever you want these particles to be. That is when probability comes into play, and there is likely a zero chance of the exact same interactions in both universes.