Does human life have value?

[lastcallhall]

Christians base right and wrong on the Bible and a belief that human life has value because we are all made in God's image and that alone makes everyone worth something. For this thread let's assume the Bible is not worth the paper it is printed on. Let's also assume that there is no God at all and when you die the lights go out, the music stops, and the party is over. That being said here are my questions and please remember that for this thread God does not exist.

1. What gives human life value? If we evolved from the same thing everything else did are humans worth more than anything else?

2. If human life has value, why?

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

[Slopeshoulder]

Christians base right and wrong on the Bible and a belief that human life has value because we are all made in God's image and that alone makes everyone worth something. For this thread let's assume the Bible is not worth the paper it is printed on. Let's also assume that there is no God at all and when you die the lights go out, the music stops, and the party is over. That being said here are my questions and please remember that for this thread God does not exist.

1. What gives human life value? If we evolved from the same thing everything else did are humans worth more than anything else?

Even if I were an atheist I'd say that human life has value because we see it the image of what is meant by god, we feel it has value, we invest it with value, even sacred value. It has value because we say it has value, our hearts and minds declare it, and as a civilization we agree to it.

2. If human life has value, why?

See above. I guess I could go into the bases of meta-ethics and all that, but it comes down to interpretation and agreement, human empathy and ego. We matter, you matter.

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

Sure, because civilization, in the form of civil society, spoke, and hopefully democratically.

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

No, you would be bound by the laws, ethos, zeitgeist and mores of the society in which you live. People who don't feel so bound are labelled criminals or sociopaths.
No God needed.

[Filthy Tugboat]

I am not saying money does have more value in a totally secular society that is why I asked the question. I have always thought if there was no God why would I not want the best lifestyle I could possibly have without regard for anyone else. I think history shows many men have tried to grab money and power that did not believe in God

I never understood that. Many religious people I've spoken with regard life meaningless without God. Is this because of a dependence on God that without that faith everything would fall apart for them? Is it because you've never really considered the merits of life without God? Why does life lose meaning if faith in God was lost? History has also shown many men have tried to grab money and power that did believe in God. Rather meaningless to post either statement though really as it more speaks to the character of some people rather than any religious association(or lack there of).

It's off thread but I really mean no offense, one thing about me is I am a very curious person and figured I would ask a question I always wanted to. Me as a christian gives value to life because we are all made in God's image

I realise this was not intentionally a claim for the debate but I will happily inform you that I dispute this claim.

and that Jesus said the greatest commandment is love God and your neighbor as yourself.

I also dispute the idea that Jesus spoke any word in the Bible, as far as I'm aware there is no way to verify this and even on the assumption that he did the recordings we have are likely inaccurate.

Before I found Jesus I really wasn't very nice to people and looked down sometimes on people who were less off than me.

I'm glad that is no longer the case.

It was horrible but God's amazing grace really taught my heart to feel for people and to love on them.

I'm relatively confident my upbringing and empathetic nature taught me this.

Anyway I agree there have been people in history that have grabbed power and money from all walks of life.

[Filthy Tugboat]

I am not saying money does have more value in a totally secular society that is why I asked the question. I have always thought if there was no God why would I not want the best lifestyle I could possibly have without regard for anyone else. I think history shows many men have tried to grab money and power that did not believe in God

I never understood that. Many religious people I've spoken with regard life meaningless without God. Is this because of a dependence on God that without that faith everything would fall apart for them? Is it because you've never really considered the merits of life without God? Why does life lose meaning if faith in God was lost? History has also shown many men have tried to grab money and power that did believe in God. Rather meaningless to post either statement though really as it more speaks to the character of some people rather than any religious association(or lack there of).

It's off thread but I really mean no offense, one thing about me is I am a very curious person and figured I would ask a question I always wanted to. Me as a christian gives value to life because we are all made in God's image

I realise this was not intentionally a claim for the debate but I will happily inform you that I dispute this claim.

and that Jesus said the greatest commandment is love God and your neighbor as yourself.

I also dispute the idea that Jesus spoke any word in the Bible, as far as I'm aware there is no way to verify this and even on the assumption that he did the recordings we have are likely inaccurate.

Before I found Jesus I really wasn't very nice to people and looked down sometimes on people who were less off than me.

I'm glad that is no longer the case.

It was horrible but God's amazing grace really taught my heart to feel for people and to love on them.

I'm relatively confident my upbringing and empathetic nature taught me this.

[Goat]

I am not saying money does have more value in a totally secular society that is why I asked the question. I have always thought if there was no God why would I not want the best lifestyle I could possibly have without regard for anyone else. I think history shows many men have tried to grab money and power that did not believe in God

I never understood that. Many religious people I've spoken with regard life meaningless without God. Is this because of a dependence on God that without that faith everything would fall apart for them? Is it because you've never really considered the merits of life without God? Why does life lose meaning if faith in God was lost? History has also shown many men have tried to grab money and power that did believe in God. Rather meaningless to post either statement though really as it more speaks to the character of some people rather than any religious association(or lack there of).

[/quote]

It's off thread but I really mean no offense, one thing about me is I am a very curious person and figured I would ask a question I always wanted to. Me as a christian gives value to life because we are all made in God's image and that Jesus said the greatest commandment is love God and your neighbor as yourself. Before I found Jesus I really wasn't very nice to people and looked down sometimes on people who were less off than me. It was horrible but God's amazing grace really taught my heart to feel for people and to love on them. Anyway I agree there have been people in history that have grabbed power and money from all walks of life.[/quote]

In my view, life has value because I value life. I value all life, because that is all people have, is their life. I feel for people, because I was born with this quality known as 'empathy'. As for looking down on people who were 'less off'?? I don't see the reason why a difference of fortune makes people any less than I am.

[lastcallhall]

It's off thread but I really mean no offense, one thing about me is I am a very curious person and figured I would ask a question I always wanted to. Me as a christian gives value to life because we are all made in God's image and that Jesus said the greatest commandment is love God and your neighbor as yourself. Before I found Jesus I really wasn't very nice to people and looked down sometimes on people who were less off than me. It was horrible but God's amazing grace really taught my heart to feel for people and to love on them. Anyway I agree there have been people in history that have grabbed power and money from all walks of life.

In my view, life has value because I value life. I value all life, because that is all people have, is their life. I feel for people, because I was born with this quality known as 'empathy'. As for looking down on people who were 'less off'?? I don't see the reason why a difference of fortune makes people any less than I am.[/quote][/quote]

I really like to get people's view on life, especially when it is not based on anything to do with God. Especially with my feelings towards people before I came to Christ. I am not saying it was good to feel that way but most of the world values wealth and that is why I wanted to post this question. Thanks for the answer!

[lastcallhall]

[

quote="Slopeshoulder"]

Christians base right and wrong on the Bible and a belief that human life has value because we are all made in God's image and that alone makes everyone worth something. For this thread let's assume the Bible is not worth the paper it is printed on. Let's also assume that there is no God at all and when you die the lights go out, the music stops, and the party is over. That being said here are my questions and please remember that for this thread God does not exist.

1. What gives human life value? If we evolved from the same thing everything else did are humans worth more than anything else?

Even if I were an atheist I'd say that human life has value because we see it the image of what is meant by god, we feel it has value, we invest it with value, even sacred value. It has value because we say it has value, our hearts and minds declare it, and as a civilization we agree to it.

2. If human life has value, why?

See above. I guess I could go into the bases of meta-ethics and all that, but it comes down to interpretation and agreement, human empathy and ego. We matter, you matter.

3. Can a secular government enforce a murder law because the majority of people think it's wrong? Why or why not?

Sure, because civilization, in the form of civil society, spoke, and hopefully democratically.

4. Last question if I did not think human life had any special value would I be justified in being an assassin to get as much money for myself in this life so I have as much fun as I can before I die?

No, you would be bound by the laws, ethos, zeitgeist and mores of the society in which you live. People who don't feel so bound are labelled criminals or sociopaths.
No God needed.

[/quote]

Thanks for the answer, the one question I have from your reply is do you value human life more than an animal (any animal no one am I thinking of) and should punishments for killing either be the same or similar?

[Slopeshoulder]

most of the world values wealth

That was something that made christianity appealing to me, an alternative to the vapid shallow greed and materialism that seems so prevelent.
Maybe your question is not what is the value of life so much as what do we vlaue in life?
Over the decades, I've found that most religions preach values apart from greed and materialism, and MANY thoughtful secular people do too.

[Cathar1950]

I am not saying money does have more value in a totally secular society that is why I asked the question. I have always thought if there was no God why would I not want the best lifestyle I could possibly have without regard for anyone else. I think history shows many men have tried to grab money and power that did not believe in God

I never understood that. Many religious people I've spoken with regard life meaningless without God. Is this because of a dependence on God that without that faith everything would fall apart for them? Is it because you've never really considered the merits of life without God? Why does life lose meaning if faith in God was lost? History has also shown many men have tried to grab money and power that did believe in God. Rather meaningless to post either statement though really as it more speaks to the character of some people rather than any religious association(or lack there of).

It's off thread but I really mean no offense, one thing about me is I am a very curious person and figured I would ask a question I always wanted to. Me as a christian gives value to life because we are all made in God's image and that Jesus said the greatest commandment is love God and your neighbor as yourself. Before I found Jesus I really wasn't very nice to people and looked down sometimes on people who were less off than me. It was horrible but God's amazing grace really taught my heart to feel for people and to love on them. Anyway I agree there have been people in history that have grabbed power and money from all walks of life.[/quote]

In my view, life has value because I value life. I value all life, because that is all people have, is their life. I feel for people, because I was born with this quality known as 'empathy'. As for looking down on people who were 'less off'?? I don't see the reason why a difference of fortune makes people any less than I am.[/quote]
The research seems to support your view as we have evolved as social animals to be around others and be part of our group. We make rules as we have become more complex as shortcuts and wisdom passed down to us by others as we add our own wisdom.
We can see the roots our social empathetic qualities in other social animals and morality is much like a sense we have developed living with others and shaped by our experiences.
It seems that if their is any morality in God as it relates to humans it is because it has to do with human social bonds where it is rooted and not as some objective absolute from on High. Does not the Judge of all the Earth do right is about us.

Life has value because we are valuing creatures and can see value all around us. We value long before we give reasons to value.

[lastcallhall]

most of the world values wealth

That was something that made christianity appealing to me, an alternative to the vapid shallow greed and materialism that seems so prevalent.
Maybe your question is not what is the value of life so much as what do we flue in life?
Over the decades, I've found that most religions preach values apart from greed and materialism, and MANY thoughtful secular people do too.

I agree there are many, many people religious or not that are wonderful giving people. You raise a very good question about what we value more as a society life or wealth.

[Slopeshoulder]

the one question I have from your reply is do you value human life more than an animal (any animal no one am I thinking of) and should punishments for killing either be the same or similar?

That's a good question and I don't have a well thought out answer for it. However in moving toward an answer, these things come to mind in a Christian context:

- there is much theological work being done these days to migrate from a dominance model toward a stewardship model regarding creation (earth, animals). We're not in charge, we're responsible. Big difference. This comes out of "green" theology.

- The presumed heirarchy between humans and other animals may be one of capability, not necessarily of worth. This is a huge area of inquiry inside the vegetarian movement. So if anything I would "raise" animals and not "lower" humans regarding value, recognizing more worth in them. I live with three big maine coon cats, and while they may cook up tasty, I prefer to watch TV with them. But I control the remote and the finances around here. Where to draw the line is a huge area of inquiry in philosophy and increasingly in theology as the old dominance model is revisited with suspicion (called into question).

- Christian panentheism suggests that God is in all things, making them good and to be treated with respect. As beings with the gift of conscience and the tools of civilization, we humans bear the sacred burden and responsibility to participate in co-creation, and this starts with love and non-violence, fostering healing and all life.

Frankly, I haven't joined the buddhist, PETA, don't kill a fly crowd quite yet, and I'm sure that if I could save either a baby or a cat from a fire, it's so long kitty. But the theological and philosophical issues here are deep. Man made in God's image is both enobling and possibly dangerous; it has been abused, damaging creation. I think as christians we are called to interpret, reappropropriate and apply this seminal notion from our tradition (that we share with judaism and islam) as best we can, heeding our conscience, using our minds, turning to our great thinkers, contemplating and praying. I also feel that traditional literalist interpretations are coarse and lack subtlety, and that we, God, and God's plan are all made smaller as a result.

I do support punishement for crimes against animals. Exceptin' when one of my varmints deserves a boot up the butt (found a hair ball puked up on the bed a few minutes ago).