If the Christian God is just

[SomePunk]

Then that means the Christian God forgives people for not believing in him or her or it.

So no one has to believe in god or follow any one religion to be saved and that means no one needs a savior. Which means religion isnt needed because it doesnt serve a purpose.

Am I right?

[SomePunk]

Then that means the Christian God forgives people for not believing in him or her or it.

It really depends on the person's culpability, i.e. the reasons for the person's lack of belief. If they didn't believe because they simply didn't want to, and refused to intellectually pursue the idea, they are much more culpable for their non-belief than a person who pursued the idea with their whole intellect in good faith.

Why do you think non-believers deserve to be blamed or punished for something that isnt reasonable to believe, while a believer gets a free ride Choosing not to believe isnt a choice it is like a force of nature that was placed on people by those that chose to believe in their fake religions. If you are a Christian and you truly believe then you would realize that all are forgiven despite their faith or lack of belief.

That is certainly one of the most circular arguments I"ve heard; in essence, you are claiming that God should forgive all those who don't believe in him because, well, He doesn't exist to blame anybody anyway?

Er....OK.

No it isnt a matter of belief and it isnt a matter of whether or not god exists.

A belief is something someone holds to be true or self-evident.

Either god is a belief or god isn't. Which is it?

If you find my argument circular then it is because Christianity is a circular religion that accepts everyone. Not just people that choose to believe.

[dianaiad]

Then that means the Christian God forgives people for not believing in him or her or it.

It really depends on the person's culpability, i.e. the reasons for the person's lack of belief. If they didn't believe because they simply didn't want to, and refused to intellectually pursue the idea, they are much more culpable for their non-belief than a person who pursued the idea with their whole intellect in good faith.

Why do you think non-believers deserve to be blamed or punished for something that isnt reasonable to believe, while a believer gets a free ride Choosing not to believe isnt a choice it is like a force of nature that was placed on people by those that chose to believe in their fake religions. If you are a Christian and you truly believe then you would realize that all are forgiven despite their faith or lack of belief.

That is certainly one of the most circular arguments I"ve heard; in essence, you are claiming that God should forgive all those who don't believe in him because, well, He doesn't exist to blame anybody anyway?

Er....OK.

No it isnt a matter of belief and it isnt a matter of whether or not god exists.

A belief is something someone holds to be true or self-evident.

Either god is a belief or god isn't. Which is it?

If you find my argument circular then it is because Christianity is a circular religion that accepts everyone. Not just people that choose to believe.

Er....you claim that my finding YOUR argument to be circular is proof that CHRISTIANITY is circular?

Actually, all it means is that your argument is circular. It has nothing at all to do with Christianity.

[SomePunk]

Er....you claim that my finding YOUR argument to be circular is proof that CHRISTIANITY is circular?

Actually, all it means is that your argument is circular. It has nothing at all to do with Christianity.

So Christianity doesn't teach Christians to forgive people and the christian god isn't the forgiving type either...

So what are benefits of Christianity and religion again? If there are any I must have lost them somewhere in this debate.

[dianaiad]

Er....you claim that my finding YOUR argument to be circular is proof that CHRISTIANITY is circular?

Actually, all it means is that your argument is circular. It has nothing at all to do with Christianity.

So Christianity doesn't teach Christians to forgive people and the christian god isn't the forgiving type either...

So what are benefits of Christianity and religion again? If there are any I must have lost them somewhere in this debate.

Red herring. Strawman.

Again; your circular argument goes....

Non-believers do not deserve blame for not believing in deity because
It's not reasonable to believe in Him, therefore
God should forgive all those who do not believe in Him and allow 'em all in heaven.

Oh, and Christians should understand exactly how unreasonable belief in their deity is, and so include within their belief system the fact that it IS unreasonable...and therefore they should also understand that all non-believers are forgiven.


Or as I put it earlier, God should forgive all who do not believe in Him because He doesn't exist to blame anybody anyway.

I do hope you see the problem with that reasoning.

As it happens, I do come from a place in Christian thought that teaches this; God only expects us to do the best we have with the truths we know. He also, however, expects us to keep looking for, adding to, and living by the truths we come to know.

That's all one could ask of any deity, don't you think?

[xSilverPhinx]

Based on a human form of justice, if a just god and hell exists, then works and character would be more important than whether the person believed or not.

There are people who have never heard of the Christian god, it's not their fault of that. An omniscient god who knows everything would know that many people would be born and die in that situation.

If belief is more important, then serial killers who confess just before they die and genuinely believe in the Christain god, will go to heaven.

[AquinasD]

So, if I truly care deeply whether God is and if he exists, what he wants from me, I will be saved without regard to whether I actually believe. Is that taught in the Christian scriptures? What about the promise that all who seek will find?

If we assume the revelation about Christ as the Savior of humanity to be true, then what this means about your concerns is only that, if your search for truth in this world and life is earnest, authentic, in good faith (pick an existentialist term as you see fit), then you will accept Him at some time. This does not require that it be during your earthly, temporal life (but if this consideration were to motivate not seeking the truth in this life, then we fall back on the problem of a person just not caring in the first place).

If one seeks the truth in their heart with honesty, then they will have the ability to accept the truth. This is the best I can figure "He who seeks shall find" means.

[Goat]

So, if I truly care deeply whether God is and if he exists, what he wants from me, I will be saved without regard to whether I actually believe. Is that taught in the Christian scriptures? What about the promise that all who seek will find?

If we assume the revelation about Christ as the Savior of humanity to be true, then what this means about your concerns is only that, if your search for truth in this world and life is earnest, authentic, in good faith (pick an existentialist term as you see fit), then you will accept Him at some time. This does not require that it be during your earthly, temporal life (but if this consideration were to motivate not seeking the truth in this life, then we fall back on the problem of a person just not caring in the first place).

If one seeks the truth in their heart with honesty, then they will have the ability to accept the truth. This is the best I can figure "He who seeks shall find" means.

And, if you don't assume the revelation about Christ as the Savior of Humanity to be true, but rather wants to see where the evidence leads , rather than making a presumption... then where does that leave us?

With an honest searching for Truth, I don't get lead to the conclusion that Jesus is the savior of all humanity. I don't even find the concept of 'Salvation' to be a true concept.

[spayne]

With an honest searching for Truth, I don't get lead to the conclusion that Jesus is the savior of all humanity. I don't even find the concept of 'Salvation' to be a true concept.

I think one of the difficult things to understand about Christianity is that we can't actually successfully find the truth on our own. The Truth finds us!! Jesus was pretty clear that He came into this world to "seek and save the lost". And anyone who comes to believe in him does so not our of their own initiative, but as a response to God, who reveals to us that Jesus is the Son of God.

So if you want to know the Truth, pray to God that he would reveal Him to you.

[Goat]

With an honest searching for Truth, I don't get lead to the conclusion that Jesus is the savior of all humanity. I don't even find the concept of 'Salvation' to be a true concept.

I think one of the difficult things to understand about Christianity is that we can't actually successfully find the truth on our own. The Truth finds us!! Jesus was pretty clear that He came into this world to "seek and save the lost". And anyone who comes to believe in him does so not our of their own initiative, but as a response to God, who reveals to us that Jesus is the Son of God.

So if you want to know the Truth, pray to God that he would reveal Him to you.

Well, that's a catch 22 now isn't it. If I believed in God, I would believe I have the truth already.

Since I don't believe in God, I can't pray to something I don't see is there to begin with.

Since that path to 'Truth' is therefore logically inaccessible to me, what can you do to show that You speak the truth, rather than make unsupported claims?

[spayne]

With an honest searching for Truth, I don't get lead to the conclusion that Jesus is the savior of all humanity. I don't even find the concept of 'Salvation' to be a true concept.

I think one of the difficult things to understand about Christianity is that we can't actually successfully find the truth on our own. The Truth finds us!! Jesus was pretty clear that He came into this world to "seek and save the lost". And anyone who comes to believe in him does so not our of their own initiative, but as a response to God, who reveals to us that Jesus is the Son of God.

So if you want to know the Truth, pray to God that he would reveal Him to you.

Well, that's a catch 22 now isn't it. If I believed in God, I would believe I have the truth already.

Since I don't believe in God, I can't pray to something I don't see is there to begin with.

Since that path to 'Truth' is therefore logically inaccessible to me, what can you do to show that You speak the truth, rather than make unsupported claims?

These aren't my claims, and they certainly aren't unsupported. Jesus Christ said: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I was simply trying to pass on to you what I received from God, that truth is not a concept, it's a person. And I am no different than anybody else (ie. I am not claiming to have some type of esoteric knowledge or insight here). So what was accessible for me is certainly going to be just as accessible for you.