I do not believe god stories and neither do you

[Zzyzx]

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The hallmark of Atheism / Non-Theism is disbelief in stories about gods. This seems to be considered by many Theists to be wrong (at the very least).

However, Theists typically take exactly the same "do not believe god stories" position regarding any of the thousands of proposed gods other than their favorite. Their reason for rejecting other gods is the same as Non-Theists use in refusing to believe tales about the Bible God " lack of credible, compelling evidence the stories are any more than imaginary (though they may add that they already believe in one god and cannot believe in more than one).

"The Bible says so " in three different places" is NOT credible, compelling evidence unless one already accepts the Bible as "the Word of God" (or whatever).

Question for debate:

Why is it difficult to accept that the lack of evidence that Christians use to dismiss claims about competing gods is exactly the same as the lack of evidence that Non-Theists use to reject the Bible God?

[OnceConvinced]

What you think is immaterial in debate. Is there good reason to accept tales about god(s) in the absence of evidence? If so what reason(s)?

Do you write imaginary stories about gods? I dont, and I dont think you do so. If we dont do so, why should we assume that other people do so?

I have actually done so. The god of the bible puts in cameo appearances in a novel I wrote. I've also read books with gods in. Douglas Adams (Hitch Hiker's guide to the Galaxy) for instance wrote a book with Thor as one of the main characters.

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Question for debate:

Why is it difficult to accept that the lack of evidence that Christians use to dismiss claims about competing gods is exactly the same as the lack of evidence that Non-Theists use to reject the Bible God?

"Lack of evidence" is also lack of a direct personal experience, one which I often hear claimed by theists (of whatever religion). As Peds Nurse said (and I paraphrase) "Once I found God, why would I need to look for (or at) any others?"

I wish MY mind was that . . . restful LOL!

See, my mind could never stop poking me with 'yeah, but the Hindus believe in their god(s) just as honestly and devotedly as Christians or Ba'hai or (insert religion). I knew that when I believed something strongly, I was experiencing the same KIND of human 'belief' mechanism that my fellow human Shinto follower in Japan experienced. Yet we could face each other, with the exact same basic neurology and make very opposite and equally 'believed' claims.

To me, this directly impacts the veracity of what I believe (and of course, what they do). It impacts the part that claims to know a 'truth' as applied to the same world we all live in. How can we live in the same world, and with the same basic brain structures and mostly the same kinds of human experiences, then conclude VERY different things?

I could cut corners and toss Mr. Shinto-Believer out on his rear, and conclude he is wrong. But doesn't the exact same thought process apply to what I sincerely believe, too?

My beliefs, regardless of how dear or important, are never 'safe' in my own head. I used to feel dense and slow on the uptake, but now I realize I've just always been a skeptic, but wasn't born into an educated family or one that valued skepticism, especially in females. I used to envy those who seemed to effortlessly 'accept' ideas and build their whole lives around them.

Speaking of building one's whole life around an ideology -- why theists of one religion or another avoid applying evidence-based inquiry to their chosen religion is that it is basically setting fire to your own home. In general, people protect and reinforce their home, rather than invite termites or some other undermining influence into it.

There is a deep attachment to something that stands between you and the Abyss of impersonal mystery. There is deep attachment to the community who is likely to shun you or bring into question if you belong at all with them. Loved ones 'count on' a person remaining stable and predictable, and it distresses them to suddenly have to learn new ways to cope with you (or believe they must no longer regard you as 'safe').

These seem to me to be some of the primary reasons for what appears to be a deliberate lack of honesty in theists when their beliefs are skeptically challenged. It's why (I sense) theists often feel personally attacked. Their beliefs aren't decorations, they are foundations. Skepticism toward beliefs may intend to question ideas but it is perceived as much worse, even aggressive or assaultive, because these beliefs are required by the theist's natural drive to establish safety and 'control' over their immediate lives.

We can easily condition ourselves (or be conditioned) to avoid applying skepticism to our own beliefs, while doing an excellent job at being skeptical of another's beliefs. After a while, it is little effort to dodge questions, stonewall, answer questions with more questions, and obfuscate.

[Blastcat]

the fact that there are more religions out there does not say anything about any of them individually... For instance, we have many theories of how life began on this planet... Wether it is by a step by step natural process with RNA, directed panspermia, or a bolt of lightning jump starting life... These are competing theories of how life started, it does not mean they are all wrong... I don't see why that is any different then the subject of God...

Yes. all god hypotheses can be completely wrong and fallacious. ALL god hypotheses can be wrong. When a MONOTHEIST comes to call.. there can BE only ONE such god allowed.

So, you can't have MORE than one real god.. and the question is then.. which one?

When you make a comparison between say.. some SCIENTIFIC hypothesis and a GOD hypothesis, you have to remember that NO scientist will proclaim that ONE is more TRUE than the other without BACKING IT UP with evidence.

No evidence is equal to no evidence .. ONE hypothesis about how life originated on Earth is worth just as much as ANY OTHER hypothesis about how life started up on earth AS LONG as the scientific hypothesis MATCHES with the MATH and all the OTHER data we have observed scientifically.

You can't say that AT ALL about any gods.. No math, that's for sure.. and not much data.. All we REALLY have for god claims is that the BELIEVERS BELIEVE A LOT.

So, it's not entirely equivalent to say that GOD hypotheses are the same as SCIENTIFIC hypotheses.

Actually, as a Christian, i am inclined to say that the other religions are another piece of the puzzle.

Well, that's a nice hypothesis. Why not? BUT.. more importantly , why?

That other religions play a role in Gods plan.

And YOUR god can play a role in THEIR god's plan. Yes. a lot of claims can be made.
Math and facts to back them up?

Not so much.

Anyone and their pet gorilla can speculate.
Speculation plus a dollar fifty with get you a coffee.

For instance, as Christians, we believe that there will be war in the world, or even more precisely there will be war in the middle east.. This is a prophecy in Christianity, it is prophetic. And we see evidence of this with Jihad..

And you found what you were expecting. War in the Middle East. There has been war in the Middle East ever since people moved in. There still is war in the Middle East.

What a surprise.
It's like predicting that the sun will rise tomorrow. BIG HONKING SURPRISE.

Do you know what would HAVE been an astonishing prediction?.... A WINNING LOTTO NUMBER WITH THE DATE OF THE DRAW.

That would have shut ME UP....
But we have wars in the Middle East .. yah.

We have fish in the sea.
We have clouds in the sky.

I wonder what the MUSLIMS have to say about the role YOUR god plays in THEIR god's plan? Heard of ALLAH?

Jihad literally means "holy war", and God knew it. So is Islam wrong then?

To an outsider, Christians are "wrong" when they believe that their imaginary friend exists in the real world. AND....

MUSLIMS are wrong for the same reasons. Imaginary friends and foes AREN'T REAL.

is it a fake God?

As an outsider to both religions, I would say YES of course it's as "fake" as yours.

I think that Islam supports Christianity for the reason i gave..

I think that Christianity supports ISLAM for the same reasons. You both need a SATAN.. you just call each other that. Like in a school yard.. mean nasty names going back and forth.

Not much love. Not much thought, either.

NO evidence on either side. So, this is very strange and weird to an impartial outsider.

Islam support our belief about God..

Your god supports their belief in ALLAH.

It also goes really deep in theology as well, How the Arabs are also sons of Abraham, because Abraham is the father of Ishmael... I think this stuff is right in line with Biblical teachings...

They use the same teachings and arrive at DIFFERENT conclusions about your Jesus. How weird.

Even the atheist is right in line with Gods plan...

Oh sure, why not, while you're at it?
Tell us about the talking snake too.

Because God told us all about you guys, you guys illustrate truth in scripture.. God told us you will reject the Cornerstone of the faith.

YEP.. some people don't BUY bull twaddle and crap candies. So, that's true.. not everyone believes your nonsense. Fairy tales are for KIDS.

We don't BELIEVE in your hocus and your pocus.

AND FOR THE RECORD.. it was people who wrote the Bible.. not a god with a godly pen on godly paper. RIGHT?

HE didn't say squat.. it was preachers writing that stuff.... dictating it .. And the last time I checked, preachers aren't gods.

God told us that you will proclaim that you are intelligent for just that.. God told us that you will see the message as foolishness...

Well, if it's intelligent to believe STORIES as just TRUE.. no matter what.. then yes. We do say we are more intelligent that way. We don't believe in something JUST because it's in a big leather bound book.

We demand MORE than words. That's pretty intelligent as far as I'm concerned. Anyone believing in a book JUST because.. is acting pretty dumb in my way of thinking.

We don't PROCLAIM that we are intelligent.. we probably just are using our intelligence when it applies to the god hypothesis.

And, yes, the stats are in.. there is a correlation between higher education and atheism.

You yourself shows truth to Gods Word, and you don't even believe in God..

As long as it all fits your story it HAS to be true? Nah.. stories can fit. and that doesn't mean it's true. Your beliefs have YET to be demonstrated as MORE true than any other religious belief out there.

What you HAVE demonstrated here is your HUGE bias in favor of your own position.. but NO evidence.

If you HAD rock solid evidence there would NOT be debates like this. So, of COURSE you don't have evidence.

You DO have your favorite stories.. now PROVE that they are true.. and MORE true than any other religion's favorite stories.

Atheists have only been waiting for this for about 2 thousand years. WHERE'S the BEEF?

It is not a question of if other religions contradict Christianity, because they don't, and neither do atheists at that matter... Because God knows all.

FOR sure.. your beliefs are rock solid.. and the others.. not so much.

THAT'S exactly what the other religions say about YOUR beliefs.
Go argue with THEM, why don't you?

[Peds nurse]

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[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Mr. Z....but I think of you more as Mr. A+ (haha).

PN, you are one of the rare Theists who do not take offense when I challenge claims and stories. More typical (well maybe a bit extreme) is something along the lines of http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 003#718003

I don't discredit other religions because they lack proof, I don't investigate other religions because there is no need to! I have found God...why would I keep searching?

Perhaps you found one of the minor gods (if such things as gods exist beyond imagination), the one favored by Bible writers (whoever they were) and the one currently popular in US society. Had you been born and raised elsewhere it is likely that you would have found a different god (as distribution of world religions indicates).

It is always God's plan, regardless of cultural influences, that we find Him!

Also, this evidence that you refer to, what exactly are you looking for? I mean, what is compelling evidence?

I do not pretend to know what evidence a person could or should present to substantiate their claims and stories.

I am not really asking you what evidence a person could present, I'm asking what will convince you?

A starting point might be to consider what evidence it would take to convince YOU that one of the other gods was "the real deal" and that the Bible god was just a minor player or an imposter promoted by Bible writers.

I don't need convinced Z. I am not looking for evidence of another God because I believe that my God is enough. I think it might be interesting to learn why others believe what they do, but I don't need to determine if their Gods are real.

Would a few unverifiable stories in an ancient book be enough? Would unverifiable testimonials about "revelations" or "visions" told or written about be enough? Would a personal visit from a "god" be convincing " or a dream?

What would it take PN?

I am not sure what you think Z. But as for me, I didn't read the Bible, and think..YES GOD IS REAL. No, God understood my unbelief, He understood my doubts, which is why He addresses this in His word. He says, trust me..just do it, and see if I don't fulfill every promise that I made unto mankind. If you give me your trust, I will fill your storehouse so full, that it won't be able to hold my gifts. Z, I didn't take a step toward God on evidence, I took a step toward Him in faith. He is a living God, constantly working in our lives, filling us with so much of His love, that it spills into the lives of others.

I ask you the same question Z! What would it take for you to believe?

God does not write on a rock, "God was here." He does not rain down money, or put the Alps in your back yard.

As best I can tell, NONE of the gods DO anything (except in people's testimonials " that cannot be checked for truth and accuracy).

I beg to differ my friend! His love is conveyed through the very words I write. I WISH I could tell you the extreme love that I have for all on this forum. It isn't made up, it is real, genuine, and not created from myself.

He does give us evidence that He is God, that He created this earth and everything in it,

Okay, what evidence has God given to indicate that "he" created the Earth?

Look around you Z! The oxygen, the trees, the birds, the sun, the moon, the stars, and everything on this planet. In our solar system, we are the ONLY planet capable of sustaining human life! It wasn't by accident, it was on purpose...for us! The evidence is in the order of the world. The evidence of which God has supplied, can be hindered by our denial that He even exists. So, we turn to science (which I do appreciate), looking for answers of how life began, only to find theories that leave us asking more questions, than it ever answers.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Question for debate:

Why is it difficult to accept that the lack of evidence that Christians use to dismiss claims about competing gods is exactly the same as the lack of evidence that Non-Theists use to reject the Bible God?

Lack of evidence" is also lack of a direct personal experience, one which I often hear claimed by theists (of whatever religion). As Peds Nurse said (and I paraphrase) "Once I found God, why would I need to look for (or at) any others?"

I wish MY mind was that . . . restful LOL!

My very sweet friend Hamsaka...you can have a restful mind On a side note, you are better than any English teacher I have ever had...I am always looking up words that you use! Lol, thanks for increasing my vocabulary

See, my mind could never stop poking me with 'yeah, but the Hindus believe in their god(s) just as honestly and devotedly as Christians or Ba'hai or (insert religion). I knew that when I believed something strongly, I was experiencing the same KIND of human 'belief' mechanism that my fellow human Shinto follower in Japan experienced. Yet we could face each other, with the exact same basic neurology and make very opposite and equally 'believed' claims.

To me, this directly impacts the veracity of what I believe (and of course, what they do). It impacts the part that claims to know a 'truth' as applied to the same world we all live in. How can we live in the same world, and with the same basic brain structures and mostly the same kinds of human experiences, then conclude VERY different things?

I could cut corners and toss Mr. Shinto-Believer out on his rear, and conclude he is wrong. But doesn't the exact same thought process apply to what I sincerely believe, too?

I think this is totally doable! I don't know if you are married or not, but it is much like meeting your spouse. You know that he is the one. You learn to love and trust him/her, and as you do, your relationship deepens. I wonder what your spouse would say if you said, "Hey, let me run around and make sure that you are the one for me!" Who goes God shopping?

My beliefs, regardless of how dear or important, are never 'safe' in my own head. I used to feel dense and slow on the uptake, but now I realize I've just always been a skeptic, but wasn't born into an educated family or one that valued skepticism, especially in females. I used to envy those who seemed to effortlessly 'accept' ideas and build their whole lives around them.

Speaking of building one's whole life around an ideology -- why theists of one religion or another avoid applying evidence-based inquiry to their chosen religion is that it is basically setting fire to your own home. In general, people protect and reinforce their home, rather than invite termites or some other undermining influence into it.

There is a deep attachment to something that stands between you and the Abyss of impersonal mystery. There is deep attachment to the community who is likely to shun you or bring into question if you belong at all with them. Loved ones 'count on' a person remaining stable and predictable, and it distresses them to suddenly have to learn new ways to cope with you (or believe they must no longer regard you as 'safe').

These seem to me to be some of the primary reasons for what appears to be a deliberate lack of honesty in theists when their beliefs are skeptically challenged. It's why (I sense) theists often feel personally attacked. Their beliefs aren't decorations, they are foundations. Skepticism toward beliefs may intend to question ideas but it is perceived as much worse, even aggressive or assaultive, because these beliefs are required by the theist's natural drive to establish safety and 'control' over their immediate lives.

Maybe to some it might rock their foundations when they hear skeptical thoughts, but I don't think everyone is like that, and I would bet that most are not. God is my foundation, I'm not going to sugar coat that one, but whether you believe in my God, or anyone else on this forum, I don't take offense...I don't even really get angry. Words are not going to disprove all the love and blessings that God has given to me. It isn't going to make me love Him less, or any of you. It is my passion for my God that keeps me on this forum, and perhaps it is the passion of other Christians that keep them here as well.

[FarWanderer]

I beg to differ my friend! His love is conveyed through the very words I write. I WISH I could tell you the extreme love that I have for all on this forum. It isn't made up, it is real, genuine, and not created from myself.

I don't even want your "love". You don't even know anything about me.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 16 by FarWanderer]

Understandably so....Its probably foreign to most! I'll just do it incognito

[DefenderofTruth]

[Replying to post 13 by Blastcat]

I decided not to dissect your reply... it wasn't really worth it... wasn't much of good debate... But i do want to reply, so lets talk about this

Well, if it's intelligent to believe STORIES as just TRUE.. no matter what.. then yes. We do say we are more intelligent that way. We don't believe in something JUST because it's in a big leather bound book.

We demand MORE than words. That's pretty intelligent as far as I'm concerned. Anyone believing in a book JUST because.. is acting pretty dumb in my way of thinking.

As long as it all fits your story it HAS to be true? Nah.. stories can fit. and that doesn't mean it's true. Your beliefs have YET to be demonstrated as MORE true than any other religious belief out there.

What you HAVE demonstrated here is your HUGE bias in favor of your own position.. but NO evidence.

If you HAD rock solid evidence there would NOT be debates like this. So, of COURSE you don't have evidence.

Apparently you have no clue why Christians believe in Christ... I surely don't make the claim that anyone should believe "just because its in a big leather bound book", or just because you are told to at that matter. You should do your own investigation on what it says yourself and come to conclusions based on your studies...

And i am skeptical that you have done any substantial research of any religion... Its pretty easy to say stuff like "Your beliefs have YET to be demonstrated as MORE true than any other religious belief out there."... Its easy to say that when this is thrown around like candy for nonbelievers, but actually studying these religions is beneficial to come to any conclusion...

I ask a lot of people this and so far, no one has answered me (Which is kind of outrageous if you think about it)... Can you prove to me that you don't blindly reject Christianity? No one that i have asked has even answered that question.

so lets change it a little.

Can you tell me why you reject christianity specifically?

[Zzyzx]

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Had you been born and raised elsewhere it is likely that you would have found a different god (as distribution of world religions indicates).

It is always God's plan, regardless of cultural influences, that we find Him!

Do you think that if you had been born and raised in India or Iraq you would have become a Christian?

I don't need convinced Z. I am not looking for evidence of another God because I believe that my God is enough.

I understand that you are convinced that your favorite God "is enough"; however, that wasn't the question " which pointedly asked what it would take for you to begin believing in a different god.

Presumably it would take a great deal of extremely sound evidence. Right? It would also take a great deal of extremely sound evidence to convince me that ANY of the proposed gods are "the real deal."

Would a few unverifiable stories in an ancient book be enough? Would unverifiable testimonials about "revelations" or "visions" told or written about be enough? Would a personal visit from a "god" be convincing " or a dream?

What would it take PN?

I am not sure what you think Z. But as for me, I didn't read the Bible, and think..YES GOD IS REAL. No, God understood my unbelief, He understood my doubts, which is why He addresses this in His word. He says, trust me..just do it, and see if I don't fulfill every promise that I made unto mankind. If you give me your trust, I will fill your storehouse so full, that it won't be able to hold my gifts. Z, I didn't take a step toward God on evidence, I took a step toward Him in faith. He is a living God, constantly working in our lives, filling us with so much of His love, that it spills into the lives of others.

I ask you the same question Z! What would it take for you to believe?

PN, you didn't answer my question. You just ducked it and went off in a different direction, then threw the question back at me.

Again, "what evidence it would take to convince YOU that one of the other gods was 'the real deal' and that the Bible god was just a minor player or an imposter promoted by Bible writers."

I'll give a straight forward answer: I would be convinced that a supernatural entity existed if such thing appeared before world leaders and seats of government and proclaimed that it would make weapons of war disappear and that humans were not to make any more ("because I know where you live and I will be very angry"). AND have reports from all over the world that weapons had disappeared.

That would be convincing to me (and presumably a lot of other people) " and should be child's play for a supernatural entity. There are other possibilities " all of which would require irrefutable, verifiable evidence.

If a supernatural entity existed and was "all knowing" (as proposed for some), it would KNOW exactly what would be required to convince me or anyone else. If it doesn't know or doesn't do what it takes I will conclude that either 1) it doesn't exist, or 2) it isn't interested enough. If it isn't interested neither am I.

You asked. I answered. Your turn with the question in bold above.

I beg to differ my friend! His love is conveyed through the very words I write. I WISH I could tell you the extreme love that I have for all on this forum. It isn't made up, it is real, genuine, and not created from myself.

I do not doubt that you fervently believe that your love comes from God. However, believing something is no indication that it is true.

The oxygen, the trees, the birds, the sun, the moon, the stars, and everything on this planet. In our solar system, we are the ONLY planet capable of sustaining human life! It wasn't by accident, it was on purpose...for us! The evidence is in the order of the world. The evidence of which God has supplied, can be hindered by our denial that He even exists.

Someone can just as well say "The oxygen, the trees, the birds, the sun, the moon, the stars, and everything on this planet. In our solar system, we are the ONLY planet capable of sustaining human life! It wasn't by accident, it was on purpose...for us! AND, Leprechauns did it, or Zeus, or Mary Beth.

That is known as speculation about origins. There is no evidence that Mary Beth, Zeus, Leprechauns or God produced any of those things. Yes, ancients may have believed they knew and modern people copy what the ancients believed " even those who think they came up with it through "divine inspiration" (or thinking about it or whatever) still get their ideas from those same unverifiable ancient tales.

So, we turn to science (which I do appreciate), looking for answers of how life began, only to find theories that leave us asking more questions, than it ever answers.

Only a tiny, tiny part of scientific study is focused on "how life began." The vast majority of scientific study is devoted to understanding conditions as they exist rather than speculating about origins. We don't need to know how life began to find a cure for smallpox.

The vast majority of people who pretend to know how life originated are religionists attempting to claim that their favorite God did it. They study theology rather than biology -- perhaps thinking that ancient writers had special knowledge.

[Blastcat]

[/quote]

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[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I don't discredit other religions because they lack proof, I don't investigate other religions because there is no need to! I have found God...why would I keep searching?

Perhaps you found one of the minor gods (if such things as gods exist beyond imagination), the one favored by Bible writers (whoever they were) and the one currently popular in US society. Had you been born and raised elsewhere it is likely that you would have found a different god (as distribution of world religions indicates).

It is always God's plan, regardless of cultural influences, that we find Him!

Talk to any Muslims lately? Or any OTHER religious person lately? They don't agree with you.

A starting point might be to consider what evidence it would take to convince YOU that one of the other gods was "the real deal" and that the Bible god was just a minor player or an imposter promoted by Bible writers.

I don't need convinced Z. I am not looking for evidence of another God because I believe that my God is enough. I think it might be interesting to learn why others believe what they do, but I don't need to determine if their Gods are real.

Even IF you don't feel the need to be convinced that you are right.. doesn't it concern you that you might be wrong about your god beliefs?

How can you be so certain that you aren't WRONG.. and that SOME OTHER god is the one true god.. Because people of OTHER faiths say the same thing you know. The exact same thing. They don't feel the need either.

They feel convinced too. THEY are completely convinced.. they don't care what you believe in. and they feel love and happiness all their days. They feel sad for you because you are truly lost.

Doesn't it bother you that they think the exact same way you do?

Would a few unverifiable stories in an ancient book be enough? Would unverifiable testimonials about "revelations" or "visions" told or written about be enough? Would a personal visit from a "god" be convincing " or a dream?

What would it take PN?

I am not sure what you think Z. But as for me, I didn't read the Bible, and think..YES GOD IS REAL. No, God understood my unbelief, He understood my doubts, which is why He addresses this in His word.

Somehow, out of the blue, a GOD started talking to you? How do you know this isn't your imagination gone haywire?

How do you know this isn't a demon deceiving you to BELIEVE in cultist beliefs?

He says, trust me..just do it, and see if I don't fulfill every promise that I made unto mankind.

HE SAYS?.. hmmm do you mean you hear this in your imagination? Because, I don't THINK you mean he says with a voice that any OTHER person can hear...

Maybe it's another god, Peds. Maybe it's a demon, Peds. Maybe it's your imagination gone haywire, Peds.

MAYBE peds.. maybe a lot of things, peds.

If you give me your trust, I will fill your storehouse so full, that it won't be able to hold my gifts.

what gifts? cars? health? wealth?

or a happy feeling.. many people from different religions feel very happy with THEIR gods too.

But maybe you are talking about cars and money and good looks.. who knows?
can you tell us what exactly these GIFTS are?

Z, I didn't take a step toward God on evidence,

How is that NOT surprising, Peds?

You believe things without evidence?
HOW about I sell you some real estate.. no evidence.

I took a step toward Him in faith.

Have faith to know if anything ELSE is true.. because faith is a real good way to KNOW things if they are real. REALLY? .. no not really. Faith is a horrible method to know if something is TRUE or not.

What do you use faith for in life, except for your god beliefs?

He is a living God, constantly working in our lives, filling us with so much of His love, that it spills into the lives of others.

Your "god" is a living figment of your over active imagination. If you can make unsubstantiated claims, so can I. Your god is a demon deceiving you.

Sorry, it's a powerful demon. It's an alien from another dimension making you say nutty things. OOPSIE.
The "love" you feel isn't spilling here. What I see spilling here is a lot of empty words. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE .. ok but I have love and I don't need a god for that.

So what are you describing that's SPECIAL here?

Love? like others never heard of that?

I ask you the same question Z! What would it take for you to believe?

God does not write on a rock, "God was here." He does not rain down money, or put the Alps in your back yard.

As best I can tell, NONE of the gods DO anything (except in people's testimonials " that cannot be checked for truth and accuracy).

I beg to differ my friend! His love is conveyed through the very words I write. I WISH I could tell you the extreme love that I have for all on this forum. It isn't made up, it is real, genuine, and not created from myself.

Words are cheap.

You can write "love" as many times as you like. That's great. I can write love too. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE. There.. I wrote the word more often than you did. DO I win a prize for that?

Nah.. words are cheap.

You say you love me. I don't buy it. Sorry. Your internal feelings don't really affect me that much, you know. I wish I could tell YOU how much love I have for my pet hamster.

That doesn't affect if what you believe in is TRUE or not. You can be happy and mistaken.

You can be blissful while on crack cocaine. You can love everyone in here while taking Extacy... you can be joly whilst drunk.

YOUR FEELINGS do not guarantee that what you are saying is true. Sorry.

Try again.

He does give us evidence that He is God, that He created this earth and everything in it,

Okay, what evidence has God given to indicate that "he" created the Earth?

Look around you Z! The oxygen, the trees, the birds, the sun, the moon, the stars, and everything on this planet.

Yep, isn't [strike]Zeus[/strike] [strike]Vishnu [/strike] [strike]Allah[/strike] [strike]Quetzalcoatl [/strike] Yahweh wonderful? ..

Look around you, Ped!!!! Whatever you want to "see" that is in your imagination is THERE!!!

WOOPIE!

Because, when something makes you feel HAPPY it must be true. Like a drug.. heroin does nicely. HAPPY AS ALL GET OUT while on heroin. TRUE? Nah.. happiness is NO guarantee of the truth.

In our solar system, we are the ONLY planet capable of sustaining human life!

So therefore YOUR god and not any other? Nah, that was ALLAH.

It wasn't by accident, it was on purpose...for us!

So therefore YOUR god and not any other? Nah, that was VISHNU.

The evidence is in the order of the world.

So therefore YOUR god and not any other? Nah, ZEUS.

The evidence of which God has supplied, can be hindered by our denial that He even exists.

So therefore YOUR god and not any other? Nah.. some other small god.

So, we turn to science (which I do appreciate), looking for answers of how life began, only to find theories that leave us asking more questions, than it ever answers.

So therefore YOUR god and not any other? Nah, the COSMIC TURTLE.. remember, it's turtles all the way.....