The Problem with the Problem of Evil

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williamryan
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The Problem with the Problem of Evil

Post #1

Post by williamryan »

I'm new to this site. I've surfed around a bit on this topic, and I've constantly run into incantations of the problem of evil. I've seen Juliod, among others, use it over and over. I hope this thread will isolate the real issues of contention and shed some light on this often misused and abused argument. I have learned much from William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga's writings on this matter, and much of what I say is from their writings.

There are two basic versions of the problem of evil: deductive and probalistic (aka inductive). The propontent of the deductive problem of evil attempts to show that the existence of Deductive looks like this:

1. If a God exists who is omnipotent (all powerful) and omnibenevolent (all loving),
2. and evil exists,
3. then God cannot be omnipotent or omnibenevolent.

This version of the argument has been almost completely abandoned by professional philosophers today. It lives on in its popular level form and is made immortal by producing this corpse of an argument between non-philosopher friends. Alvin Plantinga (a preeminent Christian philosopher at Notre Dame and past president of the Amer. Philosophical Assoc., which is the main association of professional philosophers) showed that this version of the problem of evil is logically untenable.

Alvin Plantinga presented a "defense" as opposed to a theodicy. A theodicy is an effort to explain why God would allow evil to exist. A defense, however, merely seeks to show that the atheist has failed to carry their case that evil is incompatible with God's existence. In other words, a sucessful defense with show that the atheist has failed to show that evil is logically incompatible with God's existence, while leaving us in the dark as to why God allows evil.

The deductive argument was destroyed because, in short, the atheist has assumed an overwhelming burden. Premises (1) and (2), above, are at not explicitly, logically inconsistent. An explicit, logically inconsistent statement would be that "God is blue, but God is not blue."

If the atheist thinks that premises (1) and (2) are implicitly inconsistent, then he or she must be assuming some hidden premise(s) that would make the inconsistency explicit. Those premises seem to be these:

(3) If God is omnipotent, then God can create any world that God desires.
(4) If God is omnibenevolent, then God prefers a world without evil over a world with evil.

Hidden premise (3) then is the view that if God is omnipotent, he could create a world that were all humans freely choose to do the right thing. This world would then be free of all moral evil: no lying, no cheating, no murder etc. So, because we can conceive of a world in which everyone freely chooses every time to do the right thing, and God is all-powerful, then God must be able to create it.

This links with hidden premise (4) because if God was powerful enough to create this type of world, then he certaintly would because he is all-loving. In other words, if God had the choice between creating a flawed, evil world like this one and creating one w/o any evil, then God would most certainly chose the latter. Otherwise, God would be evil to prefer that people experience pain and suffering when God could have given them happiness and prosperity.

In David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, he summarized this last point when he asked: "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"

Plantinga and others object to hidden premise (3) with what he calls the free will defense. It goes like this: if it is possible that humans have complete freedom to make choices, then (3) and (4) are not necessarily true. If humans have freedom to make choices, then it is not necessarily true that God could have created another world in which no evil exists but people have complete freedom of choice. This is because God's omnipotence doesn't imply that God can do logical impossibilities like create a round triangle or make a married bachelor, or make someone freely chose to do something.

All God can really do is create a world in which a person may freely chose to act and then allow that person to make the free choice. This implies that there are possible worlds that are not feasible for God to create. Just like its not "feasible" for God to create a round triangle or a married bachelor. This does not impinge on God's omnipotence though, because God cannot be impinged for not being able to do a logical impossibility. Another example how how non-sensical this is, is for someone to say that God is not all-powerful because he cannot exist and non exist at the same time.

So, suppose that in every feasible world that God could create, free creatures sometimes choice evil. Here it is us, the creature, not God that is responsible for evil and God can do nothing to prevent their ability to choose the evil, apart from refusing to create such a world at all. Therefore it is at least possible that feasible world that God could create that contains free human beings is a world that has evil in it.

I'm about to say something that will seem crazy and you might be tempted to label be a total fundamentalist and crazy, but please keep reading past the next few sentences. As for natural evils (i.e. earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.) it is possible that these evils could result from demonic activity. Demons could have freedom just like humans and it is possible that God could not preclude natural evil w/o removing demons' free will. You might be thinking, "That is ridiculous!" and you might even think that it is a spurious, frivolous argument. But only let this thought last a few moments lest you confuse the deductive argument with the probabilistic arguments. I admit, ascribing all evil to demonic beings is improbable, but that is completely irrevelant to the deductive version of this argument. Probability only enters the calculus in the probalistic argument. All I must do here is show that such an explanation (both for the moral evil and natural evil) is merely possible.

In summary, hidden premise (3), that an omnipotent God can create any world he desires, is plainly not necessarily true. Therefore, the atheist's argument on this ground alone fails, which causes the whole argument to fail. But we can go further, what about hidden premise (4).

What about (4), the hidden premise that if God is all-loving then he would prefer a world w/o evil over a world with evil. Again, this is not necessarily true. By analogy, we allow pain and suffering to exist in a person's life to bring about some greater good. Every parent knows this. There comes a time when parents cannot protect their child from every mishap, or when the parent must discipline the child so the child matures. Similarly, God could permit suffering in our lives to build us or test us or others and to achieve some greater good. Therefore, premise (4) is also not necessarily true. And again the argument fails, this time on totally separate grounds. Notice that the atheist must show that both (3) and (4) are true, while the theist merely need show one is false.

If I may be permitted to read some of your minds, at this point you might be thinking, "Even if there is no inconsistency between God and evil, surely the existence of God is incompatible with the amount and kinds of evils that actually exist." What good, you might ask, could possibly come from a pregnant mother in the wrong part of town that is struck down by a stray bullet fired from a gang member's 9mm?

This as its own hidden premise, that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons to allow the amount and kinds of evil that exist. But again, this is not necessarily true, and all I must show is that it is possible that God has a morally sufficient reason. As terrible as some things about the world are, people generally agree that life is worth living, from which we could surmise that there is much more good that evil in the world, regardless of the amount and kind of evil actually present. As for the kinds of evil, it is possible that God has some overriding reasons to permit the kinds of evil that occur.

Again, you might think that that seems pretty unlikely. But this would confuse the deductive problem with the probabilistic problem again. To refute the deductive version, the theist doesn't have to suggest a likely solution--all he or she must do is suggest a possible solution.

In summary, the atheist assumes at least two hidden premises in the deductive version of this argument. He or she must prove both of those premises for this version to be true. I have shown that both of those hidden premises can be indenpendently refuted.

Further, because it is the atheist who claims to note a contradicition w/in the theist's truth claims, it is the atheist that bears the burden of proof to show that there is no possible world in which premises (1) and (2) are true. That is an incredibly heavy burden, which the atheist ultimately cannot shoulder. The deductive version of the problem of evil is impotent.


Probabilistic Version

After the deductive argument was destroyed, most who want to use the problem of evil (POE) to show that God cannot be all loving or all powerful moved to the probabilistic argument. The inductive version admits that it is possible for the traditional God of Christianity and evil to coexist, but it is highly improbable for them to coexist. The argument looks like this:

1. If a god exists who is all loving and all powerful,
2. yet evil exists,
3. then it is highly improbable or unlikely that a god exists who is all loving or all powerful.

Let me make a few observations. Notice that even if the Christian granted this argument, this argument does not show that God does not exist. It is, however, a step along that path. At most, this argument can claim that the type of God posited by traditional Christianity does not exist. Further, this argument cannot show that God is not all loving and not all powerful; it can only show that one of this is incorrect. But this is all only the case if we grant this argument, and there are powerful reasons not to grant it.[/u]

Given that this post is way too long already, I'll be brief here, and will flesh out my comments on this version as other posts come in (if anybody actually gets this far into the novel :)

(1) Given the full scope of the evidence for God's existence, it is far more likely than not that God exists.

(2) Because of our finite nature, we are not in a good position to asses with a sufficient confidence that God has no morally sufficient reasons for permitting the evils that occur.

(3) Christianity entails doctrines that increase the probability that God and evil coexist

I look forward to your comments.

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Post #11

Post by harvey1 »

Scrotum wrote:
Just as a clarification, I'm not saying the Christian God doesn't exist. I believe the Christian God to exist, but I think that many Christians have a conception of God that makes God out to be a tyrant.
Harvey, is this True? If so, Is this the God in the Holy Bible (The only Christian i know about), or your tweaked version that complies with facts such as the Egyptian dynasties and China?
Finally he comes clean, YAY!!!
You're so funny, Scrot. I've told people that I've believed in the Christian God from day one. I think you might be the only fella who didn't know that.

However, I'm not a fundamentalist. I hold to view called evolutionary epistemology where I think that our epistemology improves with time, and therefore Christianity is part of that wave of progress where humans began to have a better understanding of God. That doesn't mean that I'm committed to dogmatism, fundamentalism, etc..
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #12

Post by Scrotum »

harvey1 wrote:
Scrotum wrote:
Just as a clarification, I'm not saying the Christian God doesn't exist. I believe the Christian God to exist, but I think that many Christians have a conception of God that makes God out to be a tyrant.
Harvey, is this True? If so, Is this the God in the Holy Bible (The only Christian i know about), or your tweaked version that complies with facts such as the Egyptian dynasties and China?
Finally he comes clean, YAY!!!
You're so funny, Scrot. I've told people that I've believed in the Christian God from day one. I think you might be the only fella who didn't know that.

However, I'm not a fundamentalist. I hold to view called evolutionary epistemology where I think that our epistemology improves with time, and therefore Christianity is part of that wave of progress where humans began to have a better understanding of God. That doesn't mean that I'm committed to dogmatism, fundamentalism, etc..
Maybe you already told me, its so long ago, True.

Anyway, But this does not make you Christian Harvey, And you know it. You just like that brand i guess. You just adhere to the Christian God and the Jesus story, but hat still worses you to ignore Entire passages in the bible to keep sanity.

Read Genesis and dont even try to say "Gap Theory" *please God dont*..... So I guess you believe JEsus walked around and he "was" God, and hence, You are a Christian (Jesus Christ).. But still, you cant ignore OT and take parts of NT, thats called index fossiling :)

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Post by harvey1 »

Scrotum wrote:You just adhere to the Christian God and the Jesus story, but hat still worses you to ignore Entire passages in the bible to keep sanity.
Scrot, most Christian theologians and philosophers in the major denominations are not fundamentalists. In fact, Augustine wasn't even a fundamentalist. Heck, Origen wasn't a fundamentalist. He was a neoplatonist like myself.
Scrotum wrote:Read Genesis and dont even try to say "Gap Theory" *please God dont*..... So I guess you believe JEsus walked around and he "was" God, and hence, You are a Christian (Jesus Christ).. But still, you cant ignore OT and take parts of NT, thats called index fossiling :)
I don't ignore scriptures, but at the same time I don't have to take them literally. Even Jesus wasn't a fundamentalist, so it really shouldn't be a shock to you that many modern Christians aren't fundamentalist.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #14

Post by williamryan »

Harvey1

Thanks for your post, very thoughtful. A few comments though.

Harvey1 wrote:
I agree that there's controversy on this subject, but I don't think that this is how most modern Christians conceive of God. I think most people see God as an individual. I certainly think that both Craig and Plantinga have this view of God as an individual. Craig, I know, believes that God is a person living in time. I know that Plantinga believes that God is as much a person as any human living. I find these kind of positions very problematic because of the PoE (probablistic argument).
There may be controversy on this today, but the traditional Christian position is that God is a non-material , living, substance (this is known as incorporeality). Further, you're right that Craig thinks God is "in time", but Craig doesn't think that God is a "person," if by "person" you mean a physical, material being somewhat like us. Here's a quote from Craig, "God's immateriality entails the divine attribute of incorporeality, that god is neither a body nor embodied. As a person being, God is therefore of the order of unembodied mind." I don't have any quotes from Plantinga, but I'm almost positive given his reformed view of Christianity that he doesn't think that God is "as much a person as any living human." What makes you think that Plantinga believes that?

Harvey1 wrote:
It's in the papers everyday. There's a lot of bad stuff that happens. If there were a Superman among us, that person would be really busy in stopping evil. Now, maybe God would strike them down as being evil because they are trying to stop God's plan of allowing evil to exist in the world, but I don't think God would strike someone down for doing good, do you?
I certainly don't think that God would strike someone down for doing good, after all that would be their free choice to do good. Again, your problem is that the amount and kinds of evil present in the world negates one either of the traditional ascriptions of God's characteristics (i.e. all-powerful or all loving). But my criticism of this view is still the same, and you haven't responded to this yet: your assumption is that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons for permitting that amount and kind of evil. Or if you're arguing the probabilistic version, your assumption is that it is more likely than not that God does not have sufficient reasons to permit the evil that see. On what basis can you make those claims?

Harvey1 wrote:
That's true. However, what I have in mind is natural diseases (e.g., cancer, heart attacks, etc.), disabilities (e.g., blindness, deafness, etc.), and just getting old and feeble so that many tragic things happen to many people as they age (e.g., broken hips, arthritis, etc.). You can't blame these on moral evils of people per se (unless, I suppose, you want to blame it on the "sins of the fathers visiting themselves onto the sons and daughters" or the original sin--but then you can account for natural disasters with the original sin too).
I agree that these types of evil are natural evils and not moral evils. Under the deductive version, this is irrelevant. Under the probabilistic version, then, one must develop theodicies that show some examples of why God would allow evil (both types).

Harvey1 wrote:
For example, a cruel person can always say that someone deserved to die of AIDS because of their homosexual sins, but that in my opinion isn't a good argument for thinking that we shouldn't change our view of God because of these human induced evils. Someone might insist that I don't know what God is really like, so I have no way to judge. That's why the argument becomes muddled. It's better to deal with issues where moral agency has no apparent reason for the suffering (unless someone's prepared to say that God causes events to punish people, e.g., the Flood), but I'm assuming that you aren't making that argument for escaping the reasons why we can probably say that God is not exactly a loving father watching over people and allowing them to suffer.
What you're doing then is eschewing a tremendous amount of fodder for your argument (all types of moral evil, i.e. lying murder etc.) and drilling down to a small sub-set. This dramatically affects your ability to meet the more likely than not burden. This is especially so given the theodic responses within the probabilistic version. I'll present more on these theodicies in a later post.

Harvey1 wrote:
Any argument we make has to be an epistemic approach which we can later argue is how God actually is. (That is, our epistemic approach can be the basis for an ontological argument that argues for theological realism of our epistemology.)
I agree that the empistemic value of our claims about God are important and worthy of inquiry. I do think, however that this bits off much more than we should try to chew for a while. I'm not trying to duck this argument, in fact I feel most comfortable on empistemic grounds, but I think that inquiry should be temporarily postponed pending your response to my claims about your assumptions and my ability to present theodicy that defeat the probabilistic PoE, and your (and others') comments on those.


A Response to Juliod

Juliod wrote:
There's a lot of words in the original article that add up to no resolution of the Problem of Evil.
Please give examples of what doesn't add up and indicate why.

Juliod wrote:
Again, we see that the theists don't (or won't) understand what "omni" means. If god is infinitely powerful then he can do anything with no constraints that it be "logically" possible.
Very few thinkers, aside from Descartes (and apprently Juliod), have been willing to say that "omnipotence" means that God can do "anything"--like make a round triangle. There is good reason for this too. Ironically, Juiliod et al, say that the notion of God being omnipotent means that he must also be able to do logical impossibilities leds to absurdity. But that argument itself is facially absured (I mean this in the logical version of the word not in a prejorative sense).

No one has yet responded to my critique of this position. The reason that this view is absurd is that it leds to far more absurdities that it creates: if God is required to be able to do logical impossibilites lest he be non-omnipotent then God must also be able to exist and yet at the same time not exist. This is absurd. Yet this is the necessarry result of Juliod's argument. When we can show that an arguments conclusion is absurd logic permits us to say that the argument that got us there is incorrect. Therefore, because it is absurd to say that since God is omnipotent he must be able to exist and yet at the same time not exist, Juliod's argument fails. Here's another way to look at Juliod's argument. It asks us to believe, for example, that God could have created all of us w/o his even existing. It would after all be logically impossible for God to create while not actually existing, but according to Juliod, God must be able to do the logical impossibility. This is make no sense. What is your repsonse to this argument.

Juliod wrote:
If you think those two claims conflict, then you don't understand "omnipotence".
True, if we accept your definition of omnipotence. Words seldom have a single meaning, especially words as specialized as these in as abstract an argument as this. One of the fundmental aspects of pursuit of truth and debate is being able to freely define terms. My definition of omnipotence is as follows: A being is omnipotent if and only if, that being can at time "T", acutalize any state of affairs that is logically possible that is not described by counterfactuals or counterfactuals or by the counterfactuals about the the free acts of others. What the heck does that mean, allow me to explain.

Let me say first that it may be that traditional Christianity doesn't use this definition, but that is irrelevant for my argument.

Counterfactuals are logical impossibilites like a round triangle or married bachelor. Time "T" just means at a certain specific point in time. This is important because of what Juliod's argument urges us to believe. For exampe, the Cubs' winning the 1968 world series describes a logically possible state of affairs; but it is not longer possible to actualize. That is, God cannot cause the 1968 Cubs to Win the 1968 world series in the year 2006--a logical impossibilities.

"Actual state of affairs" touches on a key insight into the concept of omnipotence first dealt with by Thomas Flint in 1983. He noted that omnipotence should not be understood as power that is unlimited in its quantity or variety. Rather, it should be understood as the ability to acutalize any state of affaris rather than in terms of raw power. Otherwise we fall into such logical problems as Juliod presents about God being powerful enough to create a rock so big he can't move it. My definition of omnipotence is not about raw power, but about the ability to actualize certain events and things.

In sum, with a deeper level of understanding about omnipotence we see that the atheist/agnostic cannot rely solely on the "big rock" argument when dealing with the PoE.

theleftone

Post #15

Post by theleftone »

harvey1 wrote:
Scrotum wrote:You just adhere to the Christian God and the Jesus story, but hat still worses you to ignore Entire passages in the bible to keep sanity.
Scrot, most Christian theologians and philosophers in the major denominations are not fundamentalists. In fact, Augustine wasn't even a fundamentalist. Heck, Origen wasn't a fundamentalist. He was a neoplatonist like myself.
The thing which concerns me is the seeming need of some here to accept fundamentalism as the only possible form of Christianity. I realize a strawman is good for beating it, but helps little in reality. It's a shame some can't see there is far more diversity within the Christian faith than what you get out of nuts like Jerry Falwell.

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Post #16

Post by williamryan »

Well said tselem

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Post by harvey1 »

williamryan wrote:...the traditional Christian position is that God is a non-material , living, substance (this is known as incorporeality). Further, you're right that Craig thinks God is "in time", but Craig doesn't think that God is a "person," if by "person" you mean a physical, material being somewhat like us.
Well, let's agree that a person, even in the modern controversial sense, doesn't have to have an embodied mind or be composed of a body. I think most views of being a person require being temporal with respect to time. That is, God is a thinking being.
William wrote:Again, your problem is that the amount and kinds of evil present in the world negates one either of the traditional ascriptions of God's characteristics (i.e. all-powerful or all loving). But my criticism of this view is still the same, and you haven't responded to this yet: your assumption is that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons for permitting that amount and kind of evil.
It is certainly possible that God could have morally sufficient reasons for permitting vast amounts of evil. Like I mentioned, God could have allowed Lucifer to create a universe, he became Satan, and then created an entirely evil universe (or modestly evil one like our own). However, is this probable? Does this make sense? This is the point that the probablistic PoE argument asks us to think about. I think that it is not reasonable to believe that God is all-powerful, and all-loving, and experiencing time as a normal person experiences time, and still allow the evil that exists like we see and experience. One of those properties of God is not correct.

The reason is very simple. If there were an act that God could not do because such an act would violate a more pressing requirement, then why would God allow humans to do that act and God could not do that act (e.g., save a life, or help someone off a cliff, etc.)? That seems like a stretch to me. Let me give you an analogy since that might help. Imagine if you just purchased and now began to manage a daycare center with a number of kids. In this daycare center the kids are whacking each other, furniture and walls are falling down on them and hurting them, even some of the kids are unconscious. Now, let's say that you being the owner, manager, and having proper morals began to stop the kids from the disaster before your eyes, and you also began to fix the problems with the furniture and walls, however you are corrected by the morality manager who was in place when you bought this business. The morality manager takes you aside and says that you cannot fix stuff, and you certainly can't influence the free moral agency of the kids. You have to let them do it themselves. What you can do, though, is inspire the good kids to preach to the bad kids to get them to change their evil ways. Perhaps once and a while something bad happens to these good kids, so you inspire other good kids to keep the faith of preaching to the bad kids. I, and I think no one else, can imagine any realistic circumstance where your morality manager is in fact a moral person. You cannot just sit there and inspire kids to interfere on each other's behalf when you yourself won't interfere. If you really are omnipotent, then do something about the situation!

As you can see from this analogy, if you go ahead and listen to your "morality manager," we don't have any reasonable answer as to why we should consider you as a moral person if you listen to the morality manager. Is it possible there could be a reasonable answer? Sure. But, is it likely that there is such a reasonable answer? I say that likelihood is based on what is conceivable and reasonable, and it is not reasonable to think this situation could exist if all we knew was that we are kids where the owner does not appear to stop the evils happening. This notion that the manager just happens to see a more important reason for doing very little (i.e., compared to what could be done to prevent pain & suffering of the kids)--which we won't know the reason until the daycare center burns down--seems incredulous. In fact, what reason do we have for thinking this? I think the fact that we cannot even conceive of a reasonable solution strongly suggests that some assumption about you as a daycare center owner is false or not really accurate. The most reasonable one is that you really aren't all-powerful in the way that the kids imagine.
William wrote:Or if you're arguing the probabilistic version, your assumption is that it is more likely than not that God does not have sufficient reasons to permit the evil that see. On what basis can you make those claims?
It's not that God has no sufficient reason, the issue is that we do not have any sufficient reason to make this kind of claim of God being omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and a person experiencing these events in time like a person normally does. In fact, not only do we have no sufficient reason to make this claim, we have these events that run completely contrary to what we would expect such a being to do, that we can rule it out as being probablistically the case.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #18

Post by juliod »

Very few thinkers, aside from Descartes (and apprently Juliod), have been willing to say that "omnipotence" means that God can do "anything"--like make a round triangle.
So what would these "thinkers" say omnipotence means if it doesn't mean the ability to do anything? If god can't make a round triangle, then he isn't omnipotent. That seems pretty straightforward.
if God is required to be able to do logical impossibilites lest he be non-omnipotent then God must also be able to exist and yet at the same time not exist. This is absurd.
Can you explain why this is absurd if god is supposed to be omnipotent?
Therefore, because it is absurd to say that since God is omnipotent he must be able to exist and yet at the same time not exist, Juliod's argument fails.
Why do you think it is "absurd" that god both exist and not exist at the same time? If he's omnipotent then he can do both and dance the horn pipe all at once.
This is make no sense.
>>>> To you. <<<<

If god is omnipotent then almost everything he does should make no sense to you. Why is this a problem?
A being is omnipotent if and only if, that being can at time "T", acutalize any state of affairs that is logically possible that is not described by counterfactuals or counterfactuals or by the counterfactuals about the the free acts of others.
So you have a definition of "omnipotence" that means something other than infinitely powerful. All I observe is that you insist that your views of logic rule over god, and your views of free will cannot be violated.

You are free to believe as you see fit, but your definition isn't what christians mean when they flatter god.
Let me say first that it may be that traditional Christianity doesn't use this definition, but that is irrelevant for my argument.
Fine, but I have no interest in refuting a religion-of-one.

When you convince the bulk of believing christians that god has the limits that you set, then I will worry about your argument.


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Post #19

Post by upallnite »

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. When I say "hidden premise" I'm using that term in its logical sense, which means that it is a premise the arguer relies on but does not make explicit. I don't mean that the premise is somehow mysteriously beyond our ability to discern or understand..quite the opposite. Hidden premise just means that the arguer has failed to make explicit a premise that he or she has relied on in forming their syllogism.
The definition of a word is explicit. Unless you argue that the definition could have wildly different definitions. It is now apparent that you have made up a new definition. I did a search on the word omnipotent. I could not find your definition.

You are limiting the power of god with your new definition. If you can limit the power of god then so can I. I wounder what I would take from him first. :-k
But how can you know that apple or cherry pie are "good"?
Someone else was trying to argue subjective with you and you disagreed. But here you are showing that you know that good and evil are subjective. It is going to be hard to argue if you are not consistent.
The other problem with your argument is that what if I choose not to eat either pie. Don't both pies go to waste and is that not an evil.
Why does not eating pie have to be evil? And how does a pie go to waste just because YOU don't eat it. If you don't eat it that leaves more pie for me. :D
What is your basis for saying that God can all people their freedom of choice while keeping people from pain?
omnipotence!

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If your god is bound by logic then he is not the god that caused the creation of our universe and I LIKE PIE.

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McCulloch
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Post by McCulloch »

Very few thinkers, aside from Descartes (and apprently Juliod), have been willing to say that "omnipotence" means that God can do "anything"--like make a round triangle.
juliod wrote:So what would these "thinkers" say omnipotence means if it doesn't mean the ability to do anything? If god can't make a round triangle, then he isn't omnipotent. That seems pretty straightforward.
Omnipotent having unlimited power

om-nip-o-tent Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Unless you read those definitions differently than me, it means that an omnipotent being has the power to do anything that is possible to do. Omnipotence does not mean being able to do that which is logically imposable to have done. That would be absurd and would render the word omnipotence into a meaninglessness.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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