Non-Circular reasons for believing in the Bible.

[help3434]

I often see people quote Bible verses about scripture when asked why they believe in the Bible. Of course arguing that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true is circular. Are there any non-circular reasons for believing in the Bible?

[help3434]

[Replying to post 103 by 1213]

If you read a lot about cosmology then you know about star and planet formation, which is completely contradictory to the Genesis account of creation.

And most of it is completely human imagination without any real proof. If people can’t explain gravity, they can’t also really know enough about stars and planets.

So scientific theories are just human imagination without proof? Why don't you start a thread in the Science and Religion subforum about how it is possible for the Earth and plants to form before the sun even exists.

[Justin108]

In that time it could have been ok, if the rapist should marry. One good reason is that then he should also take care of the child.

If the rules are known, I don’t know any good reason to do against them. No one has good reason for rape and no one should do so. Rape is the problem, not the judgment.

I can't believe what I'm reading. You think it would be best for the woman to marry the man who just attacked her? Gee dating would have been easy in those days. Just walk up to - and rape who you want to marry and it's a done deal. I can't believe you find this justified. The Bible says nothing about "only if she ended up pregnant" so your "to take care of the child" excuse is out. But even if she was pregnant, do you think rapists generally make good fathers?

"Rape is the problem, not the judgment" - the judgment makes it worse! It's bad enough getting over rape as it is but now you have to LIVE with your rapist who will probably rape you time and time again???

I am baffled... Are you so out of touch with morality that you swallow this disgusting nonsense and think it to be good?

[help3434]

Virgin women for them: can be ok in that case.

Do you think the women wanted to be married to those that killed their family and entire community? Women are given no freedom in the Bible. Do you think it is right for women to be treated this way?

Death penalty for gathering sticks: God has given life, so he has right to decide how long it lasts. Person who doesn’t obey/respect God would eventually compromise the future of that nation. That is why I understand they had strict rules. Also when there is no good reason to break the rules and all know them, it doesn’t matter what the judgment is, because no one has reason to do against them.

It is human nature to make mistakes. The death penalty for gathering sticks on the wrong day is insanely harsh.

Silent rape: Reason for the judgment can be that no one should be silent in that situation unless she is willing also for that.

Great, blame the victim. What if the rapist covered her mouth, or threatened to kill her if she screamed, or nobody was close enough to her despite being in the city?

Marry the rapist: First I think it is good to know:
If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman: so shall you put away the evil from Israel.
Deuteronomy 22:22
But if the man find the lady who is pledged to be married in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her; then the man only who lay with her shall die:
Deuteronomy 22:25

So marrying is only in that case if both are virgin. In other cases there is death penalty for rapist, either because of rape or adultery.

In that time it could have been ok, if the rapist should marry. One good reason is that then he should also take care of the child.

If the rules are known, I don’t know any good reason to do against them. No one has good reason for rape and no one should do so. Rape is the problem, not the judgment.

If rape is a problem, then why didn't a rapist who raped a single women get punished? Do you think it is okay for a single woman who gets raped be forced to marry her rapist? That is just sick.

Slaves: If other nations sell slaves, I don’t know any good reason why Jews wouldn’t have right to buy. Jews would treat them better than those who sell own people, if they obey God as all Jews should.

Personally I think people should do others as they want to be done to them. I don’t want to be slave, so I don’t keep anyone else as slave. And I think many modern people are more slave than any slave that Jews owned long time ago.

So it was okay for Jews to own slaves because other nations did? That makes no sense. What is wrong is wrong, even if other people are doing it. A perfect God would not condone slavery. Your defense of slavery is sick.

Clay & potter: We grow to something that we want to be. God gives the opportunity for us to grow and so he makes us. It doesn’t mean that he decides on behalf of us, it means he let us grow to form that we want. By giving opportunities God forms us to be something. I think it does not mean that God forces us to be something he only makes it possible for us to become something. For example God can give person opportunity to become king. But that what kind of king person is depends of people’s innermost (of what person wants) and the events that has happened in his life. And by letting certain things happen, God can influence to the end result, because he knows people well and knows what they will choose.

Read the whole passage. It talks about how God makes some vessels of mercy, and some vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

[Justin108]

God has given life, so he has right to decide how long it lasts.

So a married couple who has given life to their child should have the right to murder them as they please?

[help3434]

I can't believe what I'm reading. You think it would be best for the woman to marry the man who just attacked her? Gee dating would have been easy in those days. Just walk up to - and rape who you want to marry and it's a done deal. I can't believe you find this justified. The Bible says nothing about "only if she ended up pregnant" so your "to take care of the child" excuse is out. But even if she was pregnant, do you think rapists generally make good fathers?

Exactly. A psychopath wouldn't have to get the permission from a single woman's father to marry her, he could just rape her and they would be forced to be married. It seems me to be a law that would led to more rape.

[Iam]

I can't believe what I'm reading. You think it would be best for the woman to marry the man who just attacked her? Gee dating would have been easy in those days. Just walk up to - and rape who you want to marry and it's a done deal. I can't believe you find this justified. The Bible says nothing about "only if she ended up pregnant" so your "to take care of the child" excuse is out. But even if she was pregnant, do you think rapists generally make good fathers?

Exactly. A psychopath wouldn't have to get the permission from a single woman's father to marry her, he could just rape her and they would be forced to be married. It seems me to be a law that would led to more rape.

To 1213
It was bad enough 3000yrs ago when a woman was considered less valuable than your prize goat. For someone to profess acceptance of this law in the 21st century just proves beyond any doubt the damage that religion can do. God says it ain't so bad to be raped, so it must be OK. What a sick, totally disgusting attitude for anyone to have. IMO you are lost, completely.

[1213]

God has given life, so he has right to decide how long it lasts.

So a married couple who has given life to their child should have the right to murder them as they please?

People can’t give life for anyone. People just let life continue, when they give gametes opportunity to unite. People give birth, not life.

I think all who support abortion support that parents should have right to kill own offspring. I don’t support abortion, because I don’t hate children so much that I would deny life from them.

[1213]

Do you think the women wanted to be married to those that killed their family and entire community? Women are given no freedom in the Bible. Do you think it is right for women to be treated this way?

I said it can be ok in that case. All nations or people that God has sentenced to death have been people that don’t deserve to live. Those who God has spared have had some good quality for to continue live. Probably in that case those women have had right mind to be spared and in that case I think they would have accepted that what happened.

The death penalty for gathering sticks on the wrong day is insanely harsh.

Gathering sticks is only act that can show is person righteous. By gathering sticks on wrong day, person shows that he has not right understanding and so is not righteous. And being not righteous is the real problem there and I think it is also the real reason for judgment.

Person should have no reason to gather sticks on wrong day. And therefore it would be indication of total disrespect for God and his rules and then also for the survival of that nation. It is insanely stupid thing to reject God and it would lead for destruction of whole nation, if it continues long enough. That’s why I think consequences were so harsh. Person who is willing to break one rule can do it for others too, because he doesn’t respect the law and or the one who has given the law. And if that continues and spreads to other people also, nation will be destructed eventually. The act may seem little, but it can start huge change that could eventually lead to total destruction of the nation, therefore it is so bad, especially when person shouldn’t have any reason to break that rule.

What if the rapist covered her mouth, or threatened to kill her if she screamed, or nobody was close enough to her despite being in the city?
[quote="

If you read the whole books of Moses, you could notice that God placed certain judges and gave for them rules how to judge. If judges obeyed God, they wouldn’t have judged anyone without good and rightful reason.

If rape is a problem, then why didn't a rapist who raped a single women get punished? Do you think it is okay for a single woman who gets raped be forced to marry her rapist? That is just sick.

I think that can be punishment for the rapist that he is forced to take care of that women and the child that can be result of the act.

So it was okay for Jews to own slaves because other nations did? That makes no sense. What is wrong is wrong, even if other people are doing it. A perfect God would not condone slavery. Your defense of slavery is sick.

If other nations are so stupid that sell own people to slaves, what would be good reason to deny buying, if they are treated better way than in their own nation where they are sold?

I think the problem is those who sell own people, not the ones who buy them, if they treat them better.

Read the whole passage. It talks about how God makes some vessels of mercy, and some vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

I think you should think again what it means when God makes someone vessel of something. It does not mean that God forces someone to be evil.

[Justin108]

God has given life, so he has right to decide how long it lasts.

So a married couple who has given life to their child should have the right to murder them as they please?

People can’t give life for anyone. People just let life continue, when they give gametes opportunity to unite. People give birth, not life.

I think all who support abortion support that parents should have right to kill own offspring. I don’t support abortion, because I don’t hate children so much that I would deny life from them.

Sex is making life happen. It "gives" life.

[1213]

I can't believe what I'm reading. You think it would be best for the woman to marry the man who just attacked her? Gee dating would have been easy in those days. Just walk up to - and rape who you want to marry and it's a done deal. I can't believe you find this justified. The Bible says nothing about "only if she ended up pregnant" so your "to take care of the child" excuse is out. But even if she was pregnant, do you think rapists generally make good fathers?

I think it is best for the child that is probably consequence of the rape. The child would have both parents, because then his things could be taken care and he could have better chance to survive.

It is possible that parents wouldn’t be happy, but the child is in my opinion more important than the parents.

I understand that you may think it is easy for man to go and rape the one who he wants to marry. And when it is possible that men would do so, if they have chance, I think women’s relatives should take care of women and protect them from being raped.