Will the Parousia occur during our lifetime?

[polonius]

Jesus prophecized that the second coming would occur while some of his generation were still alive, but it didn't.

There is some claim that really occurred in 1914. But it didn't. So, what's the claim now?

www.britannica.com/topic/Jehovahs-Witnesses

The Adventist movement emerged in the 1830s around the predictions of William Miller, who proclaimed that Jesus Christ would return in 1843 or 1844.

When Christ did not return as Miller prophecied, Adventists divided into a number of factions.

During the 1870s, Charles Taze Russell established himself as an independent and controversial Adventist teacher.

He rejected belief in hell as a place of eternal torment and adopted a non-Trinitarian theology that denied the divinity of Jesus. He also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (presence), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or Millennial Dawn, already had occurred, in 1874.

The coming of Christs invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.

Although the kingdom did not come, Russells teachings motivated a number of volunteers to circulate his many books and pamphlets and a periodical, The Watchtower, and to recalculate the time of the Parousia.

So when will Christ's visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth occur?

[myth-one.com]

No, God did not give the Sabbath as a sign to be used in an equation anticipation.

Acts 1:7Jesus replied, It is NOT for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.

What part of NOT do you not understand?

Ok, Ok.

Then why did He give us the sign of the sabbath?

What "sign of the sabbath"?

Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them. (Ezekiel 20:12)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 43 by Checkpoint]

"What in Revelation tells you that the great crowd will live on the earth?"

Reply:

With the background already covered in the Old Testament, which tells of what the earth will be like during the reign of the Messiah--God's appointed King--such as Isaiah chapter 11, Micah 4:4, and numerous other passages, I knew that God intended for people to live on Earth forever (Psalm 37:9-11, 29 particularly interested me). So Revelation undoubtedly harmonizes with all those scriptures.

I read with interest Rev.5:10 which says that the people that go to heaven will "reign over the earth." (I have to say here that the word in Greek translated "over" in a handful of Bible versions that I have, is usually translated "on" by translators today, since the KJV. That word can be translated as either "on" or "over.") So I'm wondering what will the 144,000 be ruling over? Or WHO? Chapter 7 drew my interest. It describes the 144,000 who will be with the Lamb on heavenly Mt. Zion, and then another group of people "standing before the throne and before the Lamb." This group is apparently not included in the previous group of 144,000 sealed individuals.

One of the elders in heaven said to John, "these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Verse 14.) It then occurred to me that these people, of a crowd of unnumbered individuals, were the ones who go through the Great Tribulation on earth, and come out of it unscathed. I think that to "come out" of something, one has to be IN it in the first place. So I considered it nonsense that Christians would be, as I was always taught as a Baptist, taken up to heaven before the G.T.

So it stands to reason that it is these people of the Great Crowd, as well as those resurrected to the earth during the Millennial Reign, that will make up the "nations in the four corners of the earth" which the Devil will attack at the end of the 1,000 years, "to mislead" them and get them to war against Jehovah, Jesus, and their people, on the earth. (Rev.20:7-9) Makes perfect sense to me now.

Then chapter 21 speaks of God's government reigning over the earth, and what glorious peace and happiness there will be.

I answered Checkpoint's question in the post above, but he never commented on it. Here it is, because I think he missed it.

RESPONSE: THe Book of Revelation is fictional.

Is the book of Revelation fact or fiction?
viewtopic.php?t=34211

As succinctly put by one writer "The book of Revelation contains a number of visions, which John received and recorded. Visions are neither fact nor fiction, but communications from God about spiritual realities, usually conveyed by metaphors that are not to be taken literally."

And who really wrote Revelations? Not the Apostle John!

Where have I argued that Revelation is to be taken literally? We realize that God was giving John visions, through Jesus, of metaphorical images that related certain events that would happen. Of course we wouldn't take Revelation 13:1,2 , for example, literally.

"I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems, but on its heads blasphemous names. Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like those of a bear, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And the dragon gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority."

In other places in Revelation and in Daniel many things are made clear to us. For example, the "sea" means people, a world-full of people. The wild beast is the world-wide set-up of all the governments of the nations. "Ten horns" is symbolic of ALL worldly governments, as the number "ten" means completion. Blasphemous names are on the heads of the beast because the nations are against God and His Kingdom. (See Daniel chapter 7 for another take on the nations being "beasts.") The dragon is Satan, and he gives the nations their power. He is their "throne"---the source of their power and authority.

In chapter 19 Christ is pictured as being on a white horse, but this also is allegorical, as there are no horses in heaven. It's just a picturesque way of presenting Christ coming to destroy the evil regimes of the nations that are empowered by Satan (I John 5:19; Daniel 2:44). In fact, there are MANY visions in the Bible and many comparisons between animals and men and their rulerships. Shall we throw out the Bible because of these visions?

Revelation gives us hope. It tells us what to expect to happen, and when the final conflict between Christ and the world is over, Paradise awaits us where "death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore." (Rev.21:4)


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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 96 by Checkpoint]

Checkpoint, Christ's followers even today are "standing before the throne." Godly men through the ages have stood before God's throne.

"Then Moses said to Aaron: 'Tell the entire assembly of the Israelites, "Come near before Jehovah, for he has heard your murmurings."'" (Exodus 16:9)

"Should good be repaid with bad? For they have dug a pit for my life. Remember how I stood before you to speak good about them, to turn your wrath away from them." (Jeremiah 18:20)

"You should put pure frankincense on each layer set, and it will serve as the bread for a token offering made by fire to Jehovah. On each Sabbath day, he [Aaron] should regularly arrange it before Jehovah." (Leviticus 24:7,8)


We can see that people were standing and/or performing something "before Jehovah," and they were not in heaven. We can be confident in our opinion that the people in Revelation 7:9,14 are not in heaven.



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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 103 by JehovahsWitness]

LOL! The bottom line is, don't worry about when exactly it's going to occur. Just know that at the appointed (by God) time, it will happen. Don't try to predict, because it is not for man to know the times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority. And... be ready.

Then why did He give us a sign?

He didn't. You only think He did, by human logic followed by presumption.

Yes he did give us a sign. His disciples asked him "what will be the sign of your presence and the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3) Then Jesus went on to give them a collective sign. It goes through the whole chapter.

He said we couldn't know the exact day and hour, but we can know the season. He wanted us to look out for the things that he mentioned as an answer to his disciples' question, so that we would be prepared and be confident of his coming back. He said, "As these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near." (Luke 21:28)

[PinSeeker]

Any formulation or algorithm will not uncover any time or season that targets the return of Jesus.

Much agreed. It's futile, actually. To reduce the purposes of God to any kind of "formulation" or "algorithm" is ridiculous.

The Sabbath is not a sign of his coming.

Well, yes it is... More correctly (and this is what you are saying, I think) the Sabbaths that we enjoy every week now are a sign of the eternal Sabbath -- an assurance of it, actually -- that will certainly come at His return.

There will be a rest for the people of God. An eternal one.

EXACTLY. Bless you're soul, Checkpoint.

Grace and peace to all.

[PinSeeker]

He said we couldn't know the exact day and hour, but we can know the season.

Right, and the season is now. How much longer it will last is not for us to know.

He wanted us to look out for the things that he mentioned as an answer to his disciples' question, so that we would be prepared and be confident of his coming back. He said, "As these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near." (Luke 21:28)

Right, but these things have been happening ever since His ascension to the Father's Right Hand (His power) and are still happening now. For anyone who can't see that, look a little closer.

Everything is always near to God:

• "For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night." [Psalm 90:4]
  
  "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.... for Him, a thousand years is as a day." [2 Peter 3:8]

And of course, that's not to say, literalistically, that 1 day equals a precisely 1000 years, but rather that God is outside of our linear time; time itself is a part of His creation. So ALL of our time, from the beginning (Creation) to end (Jesus's return [parousia] -- really from everlasting to everlasting -- is NOW to Him. He is the great I AM. As for us, we should treat as such (that it is near, and that it could happen this very day) because... it just might. Again, "near" to God might not be what we consider "near" at all. But it might very well be.

Grace and peace to you all.

[myth-one.com]

Any formulation or algorithm will not uncover any time or season that targets the return of Jesus.

Much agreed. It's futile, actually. To reduce the purposes of God to any kind of "formulation" or "algorithm" is ridiculous.

But the algorithm is from the scriptures as inspired by God! Does that give it any credibility?

===================== Here it is again ======================

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The sabbath is identified as a sign:

It is a sign... (Exodus 31:13)

It is a sign... (Exodus 31:17)

I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign... (Ezekiel 20:12)

A Sabbath is a period of rest following six equal periods of work. The periods are not always equal to a day. Examples are given of days, years, and a thousand years.

And according to the Bible, there will be a period of rest or sabbath for God's people.

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (Hebrews 4:9-10)

This is a scripture with a dual meaning. Most of God's people will die their first death and rest in their graves awaiting their resurrection and rebirth as spiritual bodies at the Second Coming of Jesus.

The second meaning of this verse is that it is a prophecy of the millennium.

Both the sabbath and the millennium are defined as a period of rest.

Believers have been working against Satan. The millennium is indeed a period of rest as Satan will be bound during that thousand years!

But for the millennium to be a Sabbath, it must have been preceded by six equal periods of work.

Therefore, from the Genesis creation of man, we should have six one thousand year long periods of work before the millennium thousand year Sabbath begins!

This is the sign which the six-day Genesis recreation followed by the Sabbath day of rest points to! It is what we are living through presently! This is the age of man.

The age of man will be six thousand years of work, or six days to God since a thousand years is like one of our days, followed by a thousand years of rest which is the millennium Sabbath.

Therefore, the Second Coming will occur 6,000 years from the creation of man!

Can that be described mathematically?

YES, as it involves numbers. -- click here

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 126 by myth-one.com]

My goodness.

All God ever said was, in effect, "My promises are true," "My purposes can not be thwarted," and "I will bring it to pass." There are no "algorithms." Thus saith the Lord. Not that algorithms are a bad thing, but all that can be said, in the final analysis, is, as Paul put it so eloquently:

• "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to Him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." [Romans 11:33-36]

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

There are no "algorithms."

Here's an algorithm:

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Date of the next sabbath = 7 days from this sabbath

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 126 by myth-one.com]

Checkpoint wrote:
Any formulation or algorithm will not uncover any time or season that targets the return of Jesus.

PinSeeker wrote:
Much agreed. It's futile, actually. To reduce the purposes of God to any kind of "formulation" or "algorithm" is ridiculous.

myth-one wrote
But the algorithm is from the scriptures as inspired by God! Does that give it any credibility?

Seemingly.

You have explained well your application of the Scriptures to formulate your algorithm.

My next post will examine it to find out whether it does have credibility or, alternatively, is human logic followed by presumption.