CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
..
Athanasian Creed:
"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy
"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.
....
Challenges from scripture itself:
(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.
(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."
(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word one or its equivalent - alone, only, etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to Jesus is the Christ or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:
YHWH is the Son, or YHWH is the Firstborn, or, YHWH is the Messiah (or Christ), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that Jesus is YHWH (the only God according to scripture).
.................
Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in three distinct persons):
(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" " Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)
and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential knowledge of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God
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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.
Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!
CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Moderator: Moderators
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #141[Replying to post 139 by B Bob]
I don't know which posts you are reading, but I've already addressed these scriptures, but I will do it again.
Let us take one step at atime and begin with 1 Cor 15:50. You are correct that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. However, an imperishable body of flesh and bone (without blood) does inherit the kingdom of God. see (Acts 1:9).
Please notice it says "flesh and blood". No one will be resurrected with a body of flesh and blood (a body operated by blood like we now have)- see (Luke 24:39). Does Jesus describe His resurrected body to have blood? NO, He shed His blood on the cross (all of it). He was resurrected without blood; a glorified body of flesh and bone operated by the spirit. This is why He was able to appear in the room when the doors were locked - see (John 20:19) THEREFORE, THE ARGUMENT THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERENT THE KINGDOM OF GOD MEANS THE PERISHABLE BODY CANNOT INHERENT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
However, the imperishable and glorified body of the resurrection does inherit the kingdom of God- again, see what an imperishable body is like (Luke 24:39) and what an imperishable can do (John 20:19).
In summary, you stated correctly that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but no one has said it does. The error is in not recognizing Jesus Christ ascended into heaven with a glorified body of flesh and bone that was operated by spirit. All that are resurrected to life will have a glorified body, like Christ (without blood). See (1 John 3:2). Our resurrected bodies of flesh and bone will inherit the kingdom of God, if we believe in Jesus Christ and obey His gospel.
I don't know which posts you are reading, but I've already addressed these scriptures, but I will do it again.
Let us take one step at atime and begin with 1 Cor 15:50. You are correct that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. However, an imperishable body of flesh and bone (without blood) does inherit the kingdom of God. see (Acts 1:9).
Please notice it says "flesh and blood". No one will be resurrected with a body of flesh and blood (a body operated by blood like we now have)- see (Luke 24:39). Does Jesus describe His resurrected body to have blood? NO, He shed His blood on the cross (all of it). He was resurrected without blood; a glorified body of flesh and bone operated by the spirit. This is why He was able to appear in the room when the doors were locked - see (John 20:19) THEREFORE, THE ARGUMENT THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERENT THE KINGDOM OF GOD MEANS THE PERISHABLE BODY CANNOT INHERENT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
However, the imperishable and glorified body of the resurrection does inherit the kingdom of God- again, see what an imperishable body is like (Luke 24:39) and what an imperishable can do (John 20:19).
In summary, you stated correctly that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but no one has said it does. The error is in not recognizing Jesus Christ ascended into heaven with a glorified body of flesh and bone that was operated by spirit. All that are resurrected to life will have a glorified body, like Christ (without blood). See (1 John 3:2). Our resurrected bodies of flesh and bone will inherit the kingdom of God, if we believe in Jesus Christ and obey His gospel.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #142[Replying to post 138 by onewithhim]
I am new at this and didn't realize I was responding to posts from three different topics. This caused confusion, and I am sorry to do that. I went through my posts and put all of them here. Hopefully this clears up why you thought I was not responding. As you can see, I have presented my takes and have answered a lot of questions, in detail, with the support of scriptures.
I posted on three threads:
- The Challenge for the trinity
- God's Actual Name
- Doctrine of God
These are a copy of almost all of them. Please note the concepts presented are explained with the support of scripture. I firmly believe that we must base our knowledge and understanding, not on what we think, but on the word of God.
My posts:
Post 117: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:30 pm Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
I have a question for both the trinitarian and the Jehovah witness.
Gen 1:26-27: vs. 26 says God declared to make man in his own image and according to His likeness. vs. 27 confirms He did.
First question for the trinitarian:
If God is a trinity of persons (three separate persons with separate wills, minds, etc, yet one in unity). Since we were made in His own image and likeness, why are you,me, and all of mankind not three separate persons with separate wills, etc, yet one in unity?
If one believes the scriptures teach a trinity of three separate persons of God, Gen 1:26-27 requires us to be made in the image and likeness of the trinity of three separate persons, with three separate wills and the ability to communicate with each other separately, and work with each other person of ourselves in unity, does it not?
So, why are we not made as a trinity if the scriptures are true (in which, I believe they are true)?
For the Jehovah witness:
Is God only Spirit or is He flesh also?
Post 125: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:42 pm Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 124 by Checkpoint]
Yes, man was formed out of the dust of the ground, but that dust is flesh see Gen 6:3. The breath of life God breathed into man is the same breath of life God breathed into all creatures of the dust of the ground - see Gen 7:22
The breath of life is a type and shadow of Holy Spirit that is baptized into al that truly believe in Jesus Christ).
Post 127: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:19 pm Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 126 by Checkpoint]
Jesus is God in the flesh. Have you ever read John 1: 1-14. Is not Jehovah of the Old Testament God? Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. See Jude 1:4. Jude is the brother of Jesus and he understood Jesus was Jehovah that delivered His people out of Egypt see Jude 1:5.
How much clearer can it be than 1 John 5:20. Jesus is the One True God (Jesus is the Holy Spirit (see Peter 1:11) and Jesus was born of a woman and Jesus was before all things (Col 1:17).
I have given several scripture in this post proving Jesus is the Lord God of both the Nerw Testament and Jesus is the one man was made in the image and likeness of in the beginning (fyi: Jesus is the beginning - see Col 1:18) and He is the end (Rev 1:8, 11, 21:6, 22:13). Jesus is Jehovah Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12). Jesus is, Ke who was He whpo is, and He who is evermore (Rev 1:4, 8, Rev 4:8, etc).
I have posted back and forth with several people on here and none have provided scripture to refute all that the Bible says concerning who God is; Jesus Christ, believe it and be saved.
Post 129: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:50 pm Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 128 by Checkpoint]
Did you read the scriptures?
The Bible says "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20).
Post 135: Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:54 am Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to tigger2]
or, it means exactly what the word of God says! Jesu Christ is the One True God. The only reason to ignore the obvious is to not believe what God says.
The Father of Jesus is God Himself, coming in the flesh; Jesus Christ. A trinitarian scholar is a scholar of a post biblical doctrine that is errant, leading away from who God truly is; Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is no wonder someone that doesn't believe the word of God actually means what He says, would look at other probabilities that are possibilities, leading away form the stated truth.
Somehow, folks just cannot recognize that God, who is Spirit, could or would Father Himself in His creation of Humanity, that was created in His own image and according to His likeness. If He did that (and He did), He would then be His own father in His own creation that was created for Him and through Him as the firstborn before all creation. This is the difference between God and man: with God, all things are possible
END OF MY POSTS ON THE CHALLENGE OF THE TRINITY.
BEGINNING OF MY POSTS ON THE GODs Actual Name
God's Actual Name Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 30 by tigger2]
There are two testaments to God's word in the Bible. They both testify of the same Lord God of Israel. Not two Lords, but two testaments of the same "One Lord God" (Jehovah Elohim). The OT leads us to the testimony and revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of all (Acts 10:36). If there is only one Lord, and if Jesus Christ is the Lord of all, then it is now revealed by the NT that Jesus Christ is not only the Lord God of Israel, but Lord of all. This is why John declared Jesus Christ as the one true God (John 5:20). It is also why Jude (the brother of Jesus), declared jesus as our only Lord and master (Jude 1:4) and it was Jesus that lead the people out of the land of Egypt (Jude 1:5).
All the fulness of God (Elohim) permanently abides and permanently abided in Christ before all things (Col 1:17, 19, 2:9). Not if, but since God (Elohim, meaning all that God is) permanently abides in Christ, who is before all things this explains why no one can come to the Father except though Jesus Christ (John 14:6). It also explained how Jesus' own brother called Him our only God and Savior (Jude 1:25) in which the OT Scriptures testify (Psa 106:21, and a multitude of OT Scriptures). It also explains how and why Jesus Christ is the creator and sustainer of all things (Col 1:16-17).
Knowing God created the universe and commanded all things by His word (2 Peter 3:5-7), the one speaking creation into existence is the one and only Lord Jesus Christ (Col 1:16). There can be no other Lord of all.
Post 33: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:20 pm Re: God's Actual Name Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 32 by onewithhim]
I have the same question for you that Jesus asked the Pharisees in Matt 22:41-45 about the Lord of the Old Testament and the Lord of the New Testament (Messiah). They could not answer. Can you?
Matt 22:41-45 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He? They said to Him, The son of David. 43He said to them, Then how does David in the Spirit call Him Lord, saying,
44THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET?
45If David then calls Him Lord, how is He his son? 46No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.
Post 34: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:34 pm Did God really make man in His own image and likeness? Reply with quote Reply
Did God really make man in His own image and likeness?
Believers accept the Bible is the word of God and, as such, is inerrant. Therefore we must take God at His word; Gen 1:26-27 states God made man; male and female in His own image and likeness. In verse 26 God declared a promise to make man in His own image and likeness. Then, in vs. 27, God confirms He made man in His image.
If God is a trinity of three separate persons and we were made in His image and likeness, then why are we not three separate persons? The scripture dictates that we were created in His own image and according to His likeness. Therefore, as much as we are like Him, He also must be like us.
Either these two verses of scripture are not true or God is not a trinity of three separate persons, but like us, one person made up of mind, body, and spirit (soul).
Any thoughts?
Post 36: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:55 am Re: Did God really make man in His own image and likeness? Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 35 by Monta]
Yes, and for good reason. How can we know God if we cannot see Him as He truly is? This question is not just a matter concerning logic but also a matter of how one views the doctrine of God. The Lord God of the Bible views Himself as "One". According to His word, He created us in the image and likeness of His own "One". Not only did He do it in the beginning, but also in the end, we will be raised up from the dead in the image and likeness of our Lord and Savior; Jesus Christ.
I submit we were originally created in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ, who, like us, was subjected to sin and death. I also submit, according to the scriptures, we will again be created (restored) in the image and likeness of the resurrected Jesus Christ (1 John 3:2). This is why John called Jesus Christ the "One True God" (1 John 5:20).
In conclusion, in the beginning we were made in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ. In the end, we will; be restored in the image and likeness of God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Is it any longer a mystery who God was in the beginning and who God is in the end? see Rev 1:8, 21:6, 22:13,
Post 41: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:07 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 39 by onewithhim]
Yes and according to Paul, His name is revealed to us as Jesus CHrist (Acts 26:15). Jude knew Him as Jesus (Jude 1:4). Jude also understood Jesus was the Lord that lead His people out of Egypt (Jude 1:5). Jude, was also the brother of Jesus, understood Jesus was Jehovah (Jude 1:25)
Post 44: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:21 pm Re: God's Actual Name Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 43 by onewithhim]
My question is the same question Jesus asked in vs 45 If David then calls Him Lord, how is He his son?
Post 50: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:39 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 45 by onewithhim]
Ok, I didn't see this post. You are correct, Jesus is something more. He is the Lord God of the Old Testament, come in the flesh.
Post 52: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:01 am Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 51 by Monta]
Two comments regarding this scripture:
1) to sit at the right hand is to sit in the seat of power. Jesus Christ is the the power of God and the wisdom of God (I Cor 1:24).
2) Jesus, is the son of David, yet He is David's Lord. David's Lord is Jehovah of the OT and this scripture reveals Jesus Christ is Jehovah of the OT, come in the flesh.
Post 54: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:32 am Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to Monta]
No twisting.
Christ is the invisible God who conceived Himself as man (the firstborn over all creation. Christ is not a separate being from God Almighty. He is the God Almighty (the Father). He is God Almighty, who is the self existing one, taking on the human form He chose for Himself as the firstborn over all creation.
Man was originally made in the sinless image and according to the likeness of the firstborn over all creation; Jesus Christ, whom came into the world in the fullness of time came with the purpose to reconcile all creation to Himself. Look at the similarities of man and Christ. In the beginning (Christ is the beginning), Adam and Eve were made in the sinless image of Jesus Christ. Adam was made outside of the Garden of Eden and placed in the garden of Eden (The garden is a type and shadow of the current heaven, that is reserved for fire, at the time God made Adam. We know this because the knowledge of sin (good and evil) is there. I am not saying sin resides in heaven, I am saying the knowledge of sin is in the current heaven because Satan and a third of the angels were the first to sin against God. (However, in the n ew heaven and earth, the knowledge of sin will know longer be present, because sin and death will be defeated and will be remembered no more (Isa 65:17)
Even though man (Adam and Eve) was without sin, they were subjected to temptation to sin and death if they disobeyed the command of the Lord God: see (Gen 2:16) -disobedience is equated with unbelief in what God said.
They were banished from the Garden so they could be saved. Had they stayed in the Garden they would have eaten the fruit of the tree of life and live forever in their fallen state. So God, shed the blood of innocent animals and covered their nakedness (sin). This allowed God to not see their sin, but to see His atonement (the covering is the type and shadow of the atonement of Lamb of God: Jesus Christ).
The good news is we don't serve a God that desires us to die - see 2 Sam 14:14 "Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not what God desires; rather, he devises ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from him.
Now Christ, died for our sins, was buried, and resurrected from the grave overcoming sin and death. Christ no longer has a physical body operated by blood (it was shed, once and for all). However, He has a physical body of flesh and bone operated by the Spirit. We don't know how this body is able to be both spirit and flesh, but we will know in the resurrection of the living (1 John 3:2, Psa 17:. Job 19:26, Matt 5:8).
These scriptures and many others declare that man will be restored and be created in the sinless image and likeness of God again. The God that we will be made like in the end is the same God we were made like in the beginning; Jesus Christ, the resurrected Glory of God. He is the beginning and end (Rev 1:8, 11. 21:6, 22:13)
To be save, we only need to believe what the word of God says and obey it with Faith. These things are not possible with men, but with God all things are possible.
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END OF MY POSTS ABOUT GODS ACTUAL NAME
MY POSTS ABOUT DOCTRINE OF GOD
Post 1: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:58 am Doctrine of God Reply with quote
Is God only an invisible Spirit or is He also flesh (human)?
Post 3: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:11 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 2 by 2timothy316]
Does it say God is only Spirit? No. The Bible does say God created man in His own image and likeness. Does the Bible say man is only spirit? No, man is also flesh (Gen 6:3), meaning nam is made up of spirit and flesh.
If one believes the Bible (Gen 1:26-27), one must believe God is also flesh because He made, not only in His image, but according to His likeness. Therefore, if God was only spirit, man would have been made only as a spirit.
Think about it. The firstborn over all creation is Jesus Christ (God with us, in the flesh).
Post 5: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:32 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 4 by 2timothy316]
That does not say God is a Spirit only. It only says to worship God in Spirit and in truth. Look at what Jesus said: see John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".
According to Jesus, here is only one way to worship in spirit and in truth, through Him. Is Jesus spirit only or in truth is He also flesh?
Post 7: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:47 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 6 by 2timothy316]
Yes, so let's go to what it says in Gen 1:26-27. If God is spirit only as you claim, then there is no other conclusion we can come to other than God made man in the invisible image and likeness of His spirit. Obviously, this is not the case. It is also obvious that God never said He was only Spirit as you supposed.
Post 8: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:49 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 6 by 2timothy316]
You didn't just do that, did you? After saying let's not say what God I din't say, you turn around and said what Jesus didn't say. I don't you realized what you did, but . . .really?
I am new at this and didn't realize I was responding to posts from three different topics. This caused confusion, and I am sorry to do that. I went through my posts and put all of them here. Hopefully this clears up why you thought I was not responding. As you can see, I have presented my takes and have answered a lot of questions, in detail, with the support of scriptures.
I posted on three threads:
- The Challenge for the trinity
- God's Actual Name
- Doctrine of God
These are a copy of almost all of them. Please note the concepts presented are explained with the support of scripture. I firmly believe that we must base our knowledge and understanding, not on what we think, but on the word of God.
My posts:
Post 117: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:30 pm Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
I have a question for both the trinitarian and the Jehovah witness.
Gen 1:26-27: vs. 26 says God declared to make man in his own image and according to His likeness. vs. 27 confirms He did.
First question for the trinitarian:
If God is a trinity of persons (three separate persons with separate wills, minds, etc, yet one in unity). Since we were made in His own image and likeness, why are you,me, and all of mankind not three separate persons with separate wills, etc, yet one in unity?
If one believes the scriptures teach a trinity of three separate persons of God, Gen 1:26-27 requires us to be made in the image and likeness of the trinity of three separate persons, with three separate wills and the ability to communicate with each other separately, and work with each other person of ourselves in unity, does it not?
So, why are we not made as a trinity if the scriptures are true (in which, I believe they are true)?
For the Jehovah witness:
Is God only Spirit or is He flesh also?
Post 125: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:42 pm Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 124 by Checkpoint]
Yes, man was formed out of the dust of the ground, but that dust is flesh see Gen 6:3. The breath of life God breathed into man is the same breath of life God breathed into all creatures of the dust of the ground - see Gen 7:22
The breath of life is a type and shadow of Holy Spirit that is baptized into al that truly believe in Jesus Christ).
Post 127: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:19 pm Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 126 by Checkpoint]
Jesus is God in the flesh. Have you ever read John 1: 1-14. Is not Jehovah of the Old Testament God? Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. See Jude 1:4. Jude is the brother of Jesus and he understood Jesus was Jehovah that delivered His people out of Egypt see Jude 1:5.
How much clearer can it be than 1 John 5:20. Jesus is the One True God (Jesus is the Holy Spirit (see Peter 1:11) and Jesus was born of a woman and Jesus was before all things (Col 1:17).
I have given several scripture in this post proving Jesus is the Lord God of both the Nerw Testament and Jesus is the one man was made in the image and likeness of in the beginning (fyi: Jesus is the beginning - see Col 1:18) and He is the end (Rev 1:8, 11, 21:6, 22:13). Jesus is Jehovah Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12). Jesus is, Ke who was He whpo is, and He who is evermore (Rev 1:4, 8, Rev 4:8, etc).
I have posted back and forth with several people on here and none have provided scripture to refute all that the Bible says concerning who God is; Jesus Christ, believe it and be saved.
Post 129: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:50 pm Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 128 by Checkpoint]
Did you read the scriptures?
The Bible says "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20).
Post 135: Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:54 am Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to tigger2]
or, it means exactly what the word of God says! Jesu Christ is the One True God. The only reason to ignore the obvious is to not believe what God says.
The Father of Jesus is God Himself, coming in the flesh; Jesus Christ. A trinitarian scholar is a scholar of a post biblical doctrine that is errant, leading away from who God truly is; Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is no wonder someone that doesn't believe the word of God actually means what He says, would look at other probabilities that are possibilities, leading away form the stated truth.
Somehow, folks just cannot recognize that God, who is Spirit, could or would Father Himself in His creation of Humanity, that was created in His own image and according to His likeness. If He did that (and He did), He would then be His own father in His own creation that was created for Him and through Him as the firstborn before all creation. This is the difference between God and man: with God, all things are possible
END OF MY POSTS ON THE CHALLENGE OF THE TRINITY.
BEGINNING OF MY POSTS ON THE GODs Actual Name
God's Actual Name Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 30 by tigger2]
There are two testaments to God's word in the Bible. They both testify of the same Lord God of Israel. Not two Lords, but two testaments of the same "One Lord God" (Jehovah Elohim). The OT leads us to the testimony and revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of all (Acts 10:36). If there is only one Lord, and if Jesus Christ is the Lord of all, then it is now revealed by the NT that Jesus Christ is not only the Lord God of Israel, but Lord of all. This is why John declared Jesus Christ as the one true God (John 5:20). It is also why Jude (the brother of Jesus), declared jesus as our only Lord and master (Jude 1:4) and it was Jesus that lead the people out of the land of Egypt (Jude 1:5).
All the fulness of God (Elohim) permanently abides and permanently abided in Christ before all things (Col 1:17, 19, 2:9). Not if, but since God (Elohim, meaning all that God is) permanently abides in Christ, who is before all things this explains why no one can come to the Father except though Jesus Christ (John 14:6). It also explained how Jesus' own brother called Him our only God and Savior (Jude 1:25) in which the OT Scriptures testify (Psa 106:21, and a multitude of OT Scriptures). It also explains how and why Jesus Christ is the creator and sustainer of all things (Col 1:16-17).
Knowing God created the universe and commanded all things by His word (2 Peter 3:5-7), the one speaking creation into existence is the one and only Lord Jesus Christ (Col 1:16). There can be no other Lord of all.
Post 33: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:20 pm Re: God's Actual Name Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 32 by onewithhim]
I have the same question for you that Jesus asked the Pharisees in Matt 22:41-45 about the Lord of the Old Testament and the Lord of the New Testament (Messiah). They could not answer. Can you?
Matt 22:41-45 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He? They said to Him, The son of David. 43He said to them, Then how does David in the Spirit call Him Lord, saying,
44THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET?
45If David then calls Him Lord, how is He his son? 46No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.
Post 34: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:34 pm Did God really make man in His own image and likeness? Reply with quote Reply
Did God really make man in His own image and likeness?
Believers accept the Bible is the word of God and, as such, is inerrant. Therefore we must take God at His word; Gen 1:26-27 states God made man; male and female in His own image and likeness. In verse 26 God declared a promise to make man in His own image and likeness. Then, in vs. 27, God confirms He made man in His image.
If God is a trinity of three separate persons and we were made in His image and likeness, then why are we not three separate persons? The scripture dictates that we were created in His own image and according to His likeness. Therefore, as much as we are like Him, He also must be like us.
Either these two verses of scripture are not true or God is not a trinity of three separate persons, but like us, one person made up of mind, body, and spirit (soul).
Any thoughts?
Post 36: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:55 am Re: Did God really make man in His own image and likeness? Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 35 by Monta]
Yes, and for good reason. How can we know God if we cannot see Him as He truly is? This question is not just a matter concerning logic but also a matter of how one views the doctrine of God. The Lord God of the Bible views Himself as "One". According to His word, He created us in the image and likeness of His own "One". Not only did He do it in the beginning, but also in the end, we will be raised up from the dead in the image and likeness of our Lord and Savior; Jesus Christ.
I submit we were originally created in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ, who, like us, was subjected to sin and death. I also submit, according to the scriptures, we will again be created (restored) in the image and likeness of the resurrected Jesus Christ (1 John 3:2). This is why John called Jesus Christ the "One True God" (1 John 5:20).
In conclusion, in the beginning we were made in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ. In the end, we will; be restored in the image and likeness of God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Is it any longer a mystery who God was in the beginning and who God is in the end? see Rev 1:8, 21:6, 22:13,
Post 41: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:07 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 39 by onewithhim]
Yes and according to Paul, His name is revealed to us as Jesus CHrist (Acts 26:15). Jude knew Him as Jesus (Jude 1:4). Jude also understood Jesus was the Lord that lead His people out of Egypt (Jude 1:5). Jude, was also the brother of Jesus, understood Jesus was Jehovah (Jude 1:25)
Post 44: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:21 pm Re: God's Actual Name Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 43 by onewithhim]
My question is the same question Jesus asked in vs 45 If David then calls Him Lord, how is He his son?
Post 50: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:39 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 45 by onewithhim]
Ok, I didn't see this post. You are correct, Jesus is something more. He is the Lord God of the Old Testament, come in the flesh.
Post 52: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:01 am Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 51 by Monta]
Two comments regarding this scripture:
1) to sit at the right hand is to sit in the seat of power. Jesus Christ is the the power of God and the wisdom of God (I Cor 1:24).
2) Jesus, is the son of David, yet He is David's Lord. David's Lord is Jehovah of the OT and this scripture reveals Jesus Christ is Jehovah of the OT, come in the flesh.
Post 54: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:32 am Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to Monta]
No twisting.
Christ is the invisible God who conceived Himself as man (the firstborn over all creation. Christ is not a separate being from God Almighty. He is the God Almighty (the Father). He is God Almighty, who is the self existing one, taking on the human form He chose for Himself as the firstborn over all creation.
Man was originally made in the sinless image and according to the likeness of the firstborn over all creation; Jesus Christ, whom came into the world in the fullness of time came with the purpose to reconcile all creation to Himself. Look at the similarities of man and Christ. In the beginning (Christ is the beginning), Adam and Eve were made in the sinless image of Jesus Christ. Adam was made outside of the Garden of Eden and placed in the garden of Eden (The garden is a type and shadow of the current heaven, that is reserved for fire, at the time God made Adam. We know this because the knowledge of sin (good and evil) is there. I am not saying sin resides in heaven, I am saying the knowledge of sin is in the current heaven because Satan and a third of the angels were the first to sin against God. (However, in the n ew heaven and earth, the knowledge of sin will know longer be present, because sin and death will be defeated and will be remembered no more (Isa 65:17)
Even though man (Adam and Eve) was without sin, they were subjected to temptation to sin and death if they disobeyed the command of the Lord God: see (Gen 2:16) -disobedience is equated with unbelief in what God said.
They were banished from the Garden so they could be saved. Had they stayed in the Garden they would have eaten the fruit of the tree of life and live forever in their fallen state. So God, shed the blood of innocent animals and covered their nakedness (sin). This allowed God to not see their sin, but to see His atonement (the covering is the type and shadow of the atonement of Lamb of God: Jesus Christ).
The good news is we don't serve a God that desires us to die - see 2 Sam 14:14 "Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not what God desires; rather, he devises ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from him.
Now Christ, died for our sins, was buried, and resurrected from the grave overcoming sin and death. Christ no longer has a physical body operated by blood (it was shed, once and for all). However, He has a physical body of flesh and bone operated by the Spirit. We don't know how this body is able to be both spirit and flesh, but we will know in the resurrection of the living (1 John 3:2, Psa 17:. Job 19:26, Matt 5:8).
These scriptures and many others declare that man will be restored and be created in the sinless image and likeness of God again. The God that we will be made like in the end is the same God we were made like in the beginning; Jesus Christ, the resurrected Glory of God. He is the beginning and end (Rev 1:8, 11. 21:6, 22:13)
To be save, we only need to believe what the word of God says and obey it with Faith. These things are not possible with men, but with God all things are possible.
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END OF MY POSTS ABOUT GODS ACTUAL NAME
MY POSTS ABOUT DOCTRINE OF GOD
Post 1: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:58 am Doctrine of God Reply with quote
Is God only an invisible Spirit or is He also flesh (human)?
Post 3: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:11 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 2 by 2timothy316]
Does it say God is only Spirit? No. The Bible does say God created man in His own image and likeness. Does the Bible say man is only spirit? No, man is also flesh (Gen 6:3), meaning nam is made up of spirit and flesh.
If one believes the Bible (Gen 1:26-27), one must believe God is also flesh because He made, not only in His image, but according to His likeness. Therefore, if God was only spirit, man would have been made only as a spirit.
Think about it. The firstborn over all creation is Jesus Christ (God with us, in the flesh).
Post 5: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:32 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 4 by 2timothy316]
That does not say God is a Spirit only. It only says to worship God in Spirit and in truth. Look at what Jesus said: see John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".
According to Jesus, here is only one way to worship in spirit and in truth, through Him. Is Jesus spirit only or in truth is He also flesh?
Post 7: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:47 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 6 by 2timothy316]
Yes, so let's go to what it says in Gen 1:26-27. If God is spirit only as you claim, then there is no other conclusion we can come to other than God made man in the invisible image and likeness of His spirit. Obviously, this is not the case. It is also obvious that God never said He was only Spirit as you supposed.
Post 8: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:49 pm Reply with quote Reply
[Replying to post 6 by 2timothy316]
You didn't just do that, did you? After saying let's not say what God I din't say, you turn around and said what Jesus didn't say. I don't you realized what you did, but . . .really?
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #143[Replying to post 137 by B Bob]
The Word, the Logos, did not become "also flesh, but "became flesh".
That is, the Logos appeared in human form, in flesh, as the only-begotten Son of God, John 1:14; Philippians 2:7-8.
As such, he became what had not been, human, and called himself the Son of Man. This took place so he could be the Lamb of God, John 1:29,35, to taste death for every human, thus delivering from it, Hebrews 2:9-18.
He was not God then, and is not God now. He was and is human, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.
God is the Father, his Father, and was and is his God. John 17:3; 20:17.
Scripture never spells out the intended meaning of "in His image and likeness".
We just do not know for sure what is included and what is not.
and I have replied to your explaining that scripture does not exclude that God is also flesh.
The Word, the Logos, did not become "also flesh, but "became flesh".
That is, the Logos appeared in human form, in flesh, as the only-begotten Son of God, John 1:14; Philippians 2:7-8.
As such, he became what had not been, human, and called himself the Son of Man. This took place so he could be the Lamb of God, John 1:29,35, to taste death for every human, thus delivering from it, Hebrews 2:9-18.
He was not God then, and is not God now. He was and is human, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.
God is the Father, his Father, and was and is his God. John 17:3; 20:17.
That is your surmise, which you assume to be accurate and true.In fact, if God is only spirit, then man was not made in His image and likeness.
Scripture never spells out the intended meaning of "in His image and likeness".
We just do not know for sure what is included and what is not.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #144[Replying to post 143 by Checkpoint]
If you study the scriptures to prove what you already believe, how will you know the truth if it is something other than what you believe?
You haven't supported your argument with scripture, but with what you want to prove is true; your belief.
Does it not cause you to pause that we were made in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ, born of a woman and that we will be made again in His image alikeness in the resurrection? Can you not see the only image and likeness man was ever made in is the image likeness of Jesus Christ and the only image and likeness man will ever be made in is the image and likeness of Jesus Christ in His glorious resurrection?
So how can you ignore this fact and believe we are made in the image and likeness of God, if Jesus Christ is not God, Himself?
Open your eyes my friend and stop explaining away what God has done as if there is some other explanation.
If you study the scriptures to prove what you already believe, how will you know the truth if it is something other than what you believe?
You haven't supported your argument with scripture, but with what you want to prove is true; your belief.
Does it not cause you to pause that we were made in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ, born of a woman and that we will be made again in His image alikeness in the resurrection? Can you not see the only image and likeness man was ever made in is the image likeness of Jesus Christ and the only image and likeness man will ever be made in is the image and likeness of Jesus Christ in His glorious resurrection?
So how can you ignore this fact and believe we are made in the image and likeness of God, if Jesus Christ is not God, Himself?
Open your eyes my friend and stop explaining away what God has done as if there is some other explanation.
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #145B Bob wrote: [Replying to post 143 by Checkpoint]
Well now, come to think of it, you do make a good point.If you study the scriptures to prove what you already believe, how will you know the truth if it is something other than what you believe?
You haven't supported your argument with scripture, but with what you want to prove is true; your belief.
The question is, who have you described, you or me?
When you begin to answer the specific scriptures referred to, then we may be getting somewhere.
What I see is you equating Jesus Christ as being God and assuming others will adopt your belief.Does it not cause you to pause that we were made in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ, born of a woman and that we will be made again in His image alikeness in the resurrection? Can you not see the only image and likeness man was ever made in is the image likeness of Jesus Christ and the only image and likeness man will ever be made in is the image and likeness of Jesus Christ in His glorious resurrection?
Jesus Christ defined for us who God is, as did Paul, and I believe what they said about that. That God is not Jesus, but is the God of Jesus.
Easily. Because the truth is that Jesus Christ is not God, himself.So how can you ignore this fact and believe we are made in the image and likeness of God, if Jesus Christ is not God, Himself?
Good advice for you to apply, B Bob, regarding these issues.Open your eyes my friend and stop explaining away what God has done as if there is some other explanation.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #146[Replying to post 145 by Checkpoint]
The Bible says God made man in His image and likeness. There is no equating how we were made and in who's image and likeness we were made in. And there is no equating that we were made in the image of the SINLESS man, Jesus Christ, who is also God. And, there is no equating that we will be like Him in the resurrection.
All we have here is someone that equates away from the truth and that someone is you!
The Bible says God made man in His image and likeness. There is no equating how we were made and in who's image and likeness we were made in. And there is no equating that we were made in the image of the SINLESS man, Jesus Christ, who is also God. And, there is no equating that we will be like Him in the resurrection.
All we have here is someone that equates away from the truth and that someone is you!
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #147Each time you post you confirm that you do not know how to debate.B Bob wrote: [Replying to post 145 by Checkpoint]
The Bible says God made man in His image and likeness. There is no equating how we were made and in who's image and likeness we were made in. And there is no equating that we were made in the image of the SINLESS man, Jesus Christ, who is also God. And, there is no equating that we will be like Him in the resurrection.
All we have here is someone that equates away from the truth and that someone is you!
Each time you run away from, ignore, verses that show up the fragility of the position you have taken.
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #149What I disregard is your assumptions about what verses mean, and your misuse of some to confirm your views.B Bob wrote: [Replying to post 147 by Checkpoint]
You don't know how to debate scripture, only disregard it
Everyone can see what you did with 1 John 5:20 in your post #132.
Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Post #150[Replying to post 149 by Checkpoint]
QUOTE:Everyone can see what you did with 1 John 5:20 in your post #132. UNQUOTE
YES, they can see what the scripture says. So what is your point?
Can you argue your position with the support of multiple supporting scriptures and give a clear explanations as to why the scriptures support your view.
QUOTE:Everyone can see what you did with 1 John 5:20 in your post #132. UNQUOTE
YES, they can see what the scripture says. So what is your point?
Can you argue your position with the support of multiple supporting scriptures and give a clear explanations as to why the scriptures support your view.
