Thought experiment regarding free will

Celsus · Post by **Celsus** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:50 am

Let's assume there are two identical universes (like carbon copies or clones).

In both of them exists 'John'. Both Johns have experienced exactly the same things in exactly the same situations at exactly the same time. They feel and think exactly the same up to that point. And they are now both faced with an identical question (like, I dunno, 'do I want to become a missionary?' or 'do you I want to steal that wallet?').

Could they give different answers? Please explain why or why not in your comments.

Thank you.

Celsus · Post by **Celsus** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:06 am

G0DcanSmyD wrote:well... If you had two universes with the EXACT same composition it doesn't mean that the will be exactly the same. Probability and chance come into play, unless of course your universes have zero movement. Uncontrollable changes will occur unless you make each universe's composition one particle, and even then they won't be the exact same if the particle isn't moving in the exact same direction with an identical velocity. If those situations aren't true there will be interactions between even just two particles, atoms, quarks (whatever you want these particles to be. That is when probability comes into play, and there is likely a zero chance of the exact same interactions in both universes.

But if the two (identical) persons are in exactly the same situation, at the same time, etc, how could they react differently?

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:21 am

Celsus wrote:
G0DcanSmyD wrote:well... If you had two universes with the EXACT same composition it doesn't mean that the will be exactly the same. Probability and chance come into play, unless of course your universes have zero movement. Uncontrollable changes will occur unless you make each universe's composition one particle, and even then they won't be the exact same if the particle isn't moving in the exact same direction with an identical velocity. If those situations aren't true there will be interactions between even just two particles, atoms, quarks (whatever you want these particles to be. That is when probability comes into play, and there is likely a zero chance of the exact same interactions in both universes.
But if the two (identical) persons are in exactly the same situation, at the same time, etc, how could they react differently?

It seems at the level where chance and probability are is not the same level where the will is suppose to work or choices are made. The choices are going to be made because of the circumstances and possibilities. There is no reason to think these choices are random. Even flipping a coin is dependent upon why the person choices to flip a coin instead of making a choice dependant upon some other criteria.

I was reading about how the have theses people where the two hemispheres of the brain don't communicate and one side doesn't know what the other side is doing exactly. The set up an experiment when they could communicate with one side of the brain and get them to do something and the other side didn't know why. w hen they asked the other side why it got up to get a soda after the other side was told to get a soda they make up reasons why they did it but even then they had reasons for their choice and therefore they are not free in the sense they are not being determined.

Celsus · Post by **Celsus** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:23 am

Cathar1950 wrote:I was reading about how the have theses people where the two hemispheres of the brain don't communicate and one side doesn't know what the other side is doing exactly. The set up an experiment when they could communicate with one side of the brain and get them to do something and the other side didn't know why. w hen they asked the other side why it got up to get a soda after the other side was told to get a soda they make up reasons why they did it but even then they had reasons for their choice and therefore they are not free in the sense they are not being determined.

I've also read about this recently! It's fascinating. The conscious part of the brain simply MAKES UP reasons to uphold the illusion of free will and decision taking.

Homicidal_Cherry53 · Post by **Homicidal_Cherry53** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:50 pm

Cathar1950 wrote:
Homicidal_Cherry53 wrote:
Celsus wrote:
Homicidal_Cherry53 wrote:
McCulloch wrote:I am a determinist. If the two universes were truly identical (right down to the quantum scales), then there is no reason to believe that their actions could be different.
I agree.

But what if, at a quantum level, they were different, and, at the quantum scale, everything became unpredictable and random, as it appears to be in our universe? Would differences at the quantum level affect the two universes enough to influence John's decision or even affect his creation?
The assumption was that EVERYTHING was identical. That would include the quantum level.
In that case, the two universes would not diverge.

And randomness doesn't help free will anyway.
I would argue that randomness, is in fact the only way to have free will. In order to have free will, you have to be independent from causality and the only way to be independent from causality is to have the ability to make a truly random choice. Any other choice would be influenced by past experience and the way the mind is structured, both of which lead back to determinism.
Even random events don't guarantee free-will because even the random event determine the will or as I like to call it, a response.
Do those random events become part of the causality?
If they are random events does it mean they have no cause for it seems if something is not determined it doesn't have a cause, but then I wonder what would be the effect?
It seems will is being equated with choice of response but I see nothing free about it.
We learn most of our responses and some come from just being animals that live in culture and learn language.

I do not refer to random events. We have random events in our universe and it has not produced free will. A random choice, however, would be free will. You are randomly picking from a set of options and are bound by no kind of causality while making that decision. That is free will.

But a random choice wouldn't be a deliberate, conscious and (im)moral decision, right?

No. Such choices would be influenced by those experiences which determined our moral perspective and our preferences. If a decision is consciously random, however (assuming it were possible to make a random decision), it could still avoid causality, at least to a point.

Celsus · Post by **Celsus** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:56 pm

Homicidal_Cherry53 wrote:I do not refer to random events. We have random events in our universe and it has not produced free will. A random choice, however, would be free will. You are randomly picking from a set of options and are bound by no kind of causality while making that decision. That is free will.

But since there is no thought, decision or intention behind such a random choice then what does free will actually mean?

But a random choice wouldn't be a deliberate, conscious and (im)moral decision, right?
No. Such choices would be influenced by those experiences which determined our moral perspective and our preferences. If a decision is consciously random, however (assuming it were possible to make a random decision), it could still avoid causality, at least to a point.

So let's assume such a random decision was possible then how does that help free will in the sense that people are free to make their own, deliberate and conscious decisions?