The Character of God

[PaxRomana]

My question is for Christians, and has 3 parts:

#1-I consider myself a rational and compassionate person. How could I, in good conscience, follow a God who orders his people to do the following?:

Thus says Yahweh of hosts: 'I have observed what Amalek did to Israel, how he opposed him when he went up from Egypt. So then, go and attack Amalek and utterly destroy all that is his! You must not spare him, but kill both man and woman, both child and nursing infant, both ox and sheep, both camel and donkey.'
(1 Samuel 15:2-3 LEB)

(Similar episodes of divine genocide can be found in Gen: 6, Deut: 2, 3, 7, 13, 20 & Josh: 6, 10)


#2-If God commanded you to commit an atrocity, such as murdering 'nursing infants', as he commands the ancient Hebrews in the last passage, would you obey him, and would it change your perception of his character?


3-Finally, how do you reconcile this image of a wrathful & jealous God with the impression of God one might get from reading the following verses?:

Dear friends, let us love one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been fathered by God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
(1 John 4:7-8 LEB)

Love is patient, love is kind, love is not jealous, it does not boast, it does not become conceited, it does not behave dishonorably, it is not selfish, it does not become angry, it does not keep a record of wrongs, it does not rejoice at unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(1 Corinthians 13:4-7 LEB)

[ttruscott]

This explanation of the PCE position is the best by a non-PCE believer I have ever read! Better than many PCEers can do

I gotta really take exception with this, from post 6:

"Suffering on earth does not prove a lack of love in GOD. No innocents suffer. Only sinners suffer. No suffering is more that the person's sin has brought upon them. "

Do you really believe this, because it comes accros as really callous, maybe more so than you intended?
[...]
But statements like "no innocents suffer" just feed into some negative stereotypes of Evangelical Christianity.

I think that you missed part of what ttruscott is saying. According to him, we all had a pre-birth existence. In this now forgotten pre-birth existence, each of us freely decided to be good or to be evil. Those who chose to be evil, as a consequence of their choice are condemned to torment. Those who chose to be good, are destined to eternal bliss. But, apparently, a few of those who chose good, objected to the harshness of God's sentence on the evil ones. For that insubordination, they have been condemned to a life-time on Earth, to be redeemed by Jesus.

In that context, he is saying that all suffering in this world is justified. It has been brought on by our own choices in an existence he cannot prove or demonstrate and that we completely forget. He knows that he chose good in his pre-existence since he now has faith, a gift from God for all of the redeemed. But as things stand now, I must have decided in my pre-birth existence to be evil, even though I feel that I have a conscience and want to do good. But since God has not granted saving faith to me, I must be one of the condemned. Nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

I do have to commend his attempts to bridge the theological gap between the Calvinist and the free-will traditions with flair and imagination. All of the Calvinist arguments and scriptural references can be answered in reference to this life and the arguments against Calvinism can be answered in reference to this imaginary pre-existence. Bravo! Christian unity is at hand. This view, however, is not widely accepted in either orthodox, catholic, liberal or evangelical circles.

But I feel I must speak to this one short paragraph about salvation:

But as things stand now, I must have decided in my pre-birth existence to be evil, even though I feel that I have a conscience and want to do good. But since God has not granted saving faith to me, I must be one of the condemned. Nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

The experience of the addicting qualities of sin is the same for everyone whether by a sinful elect who can be redeemed or by a person who rejected GOD for eternity and so can't be saved.

Therefore, before the grace of GOD has brought a life changing experience to the person, NO ONE KNOWS what they chose or can guess. NO ONE HAS SAVING FAITH or a hint of it before they indeed do. FAITH is like the dawn...during the darkest hours of the life long dark with no experience of light, dawn would sound impossible but when it starts it is inescapable and inevitable, out of your hands and can only be experienced.

A good life is not proof of being elect. A bad life is not proof of being reprobate. But a good life with faith is a strong indication and a non-believer indulging in a deep and abiding addiction to cruelty and utter selfishness is also an indication.

People like you, gentle, thoughtful and kind non-believers are as confusing to everyone as are the believers who live an openly sinful life, sigh.

I have been thanked by others for sharing about myself and so I will go for it hoping you don't mind: when I was in your place I decided that if I could be saved by getting some faith from somewhere, I wanted it as I was overwhelmingly tired of hurting people. So I dedicated a year to a daily reading of the Bible which included asking GOD that if HE was there to please help me to repent and come to faith if HE existed. I figured a year was all I could give if there was no answer. ..but there was.

The point is, before HE speaks to you, you cannot know who you are unless you live an extreme life of either holy belief or psychopathic non-belief, then maybe you can know.

Peace, Ted

[Elijah John]

Quoting ttruscott, post 20:

"Are you a denier of the doctrine that all are born in sin?"
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EJ responds: Yes, I deny the doctrine of original sin, which I call "inherited guilt". We are not "born in sin".
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"I do understand the emotional weight of this doctrine of GOD but commend the call to stand on the truth and not pander to the idolatry of those still in their sins and "Come out from them [idolaters] and be separate, says the Lord, 2 Corinthians 6:17. as a support for my position. "
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EJ responds:
So are you calling anyone who disagrees with this doctrine of pre-existence determining suffering, idolaters?

I got a real problem with doctrines of reincarnation or pre-existence when those doctrines lead to the conclusion that everyone who suffers deserves their own suffering.

It can lead to indifference to suffering as supposedly being part of "God's will", and thus the by-stander is obliged to do nothing about it. Such indifference is contrary to everything Jesus taught. It almost seems a waste of time to give verses for this to indicate the absurdity of the assertion that "no innocents suffer" . It really seems self-evident from life AND from scripture:

Jesus says that those of those "persecuted for righteousness sake', that THEIRS is the Kingdom of Heaven.

And I have that verse from Peter that I alluded to earlier:

1 Peter 3:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Here Peter makes the distinction between deserved and undeserved suffering, just as Jesus did in the eighth Beattitude.

[Choir Loft]

My question is for Christians, and has 3 parts:

#1-I consider myself a rational and compassionate person. How could I, in good conscience, follow a God who orders his people to do the following?:

Thus says Yahweh of hosts: 'I have observed what Amalek did to Israel, how he opposed him when he went up from Egypt. So then, go and attack Amalek and utterly destroy all that is his! You must not spare him, but kill both man and woman, both child and nursing infant, both ox and sheep, both camel and donkey.'
(1 Samuel 15:2-3 LEB)

(Similar episodes of divine genocide can be found in Gen: 6, Deut: 2, 3, 7, 13, 20 & Josh: 6, 10)


#2-If God commanded you to commit an atrocity, such as murdering 'nursing infants', as he commands the ancient Hebrews in the last passage, would you obey him, and would it change your perception of his character?


3-Finally, how do you reconcile this image of a wrathful & jealous God with the impression of God one might get from reading the following verses?:

Dear friends, let us love one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been fathered by God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
(1 John 4:7-8 LEB)

Love is patient, love is kind, love is not jealous, it does not boast, it does not become conceited, it does not behave dishonorably, it is not selfish, it does not become angry, it does not keep a record of wrongs, it does not rejoice at unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(1 Corinthians 13:4-7 LEB)

#1 How could you follow a God who commands war be done?

You follow a national flag do you not? If you're an American you'll follow your leaders into a baseless, immoral and inhumane war every time - and congratulate yourself on your patriotism and the rightness of the cause of your bloody striped flag.

I see no difference here. None at all. War is all hell as Tecumsa Sherman once said. Nobody, God included, ever said it would be pretty or unnecessary.

The question, dear reader, is whether or not the war is right. Americans stopped asking that question a long long time ago. Why presume God is wrong when you yourself advocate murder and destruction whether it be just or no?

This is hypocrisy of the most base and wicked kind against both God and man.

Judge not that you be not judged for in the judgment you judge will you be judged.

Wicked Americans - do not presume yourself to be above reproach when you wage war upon innocent women and children, when you destroy lives and nations for no purpose other than your own filthy excuse for patriotism. You judge God? Judge yourself first.

You presume to judge God for killing babies when your own nation has murdered fifty five million innocent children in their mother's womb for no reason but convenience? Hypocrisy is too kind a word for this sort of debauched morality.

Yours is a hypocrisy, the stench of which rise into the nostrils of God in heaven. All men see your wickedness. God sees it too. Judge not God for He is able to judge YOU.

#2 The atrocity of war
Apparently you've never served in uniform. The duty of every soldier is to do as he is ordered to do. Does it really matter whether God or man orders the killing done? You presume a moral stand when you offer none yourself. This is the argument of cowards and traitors.

You would judge God?

Judge men also by the same standard and you will discover that your naivet is showing you as a person who knows nothing about military service and the horror of war. If you condemn God for advocating war, then you are obligated to rage against the United States for doing much worse - making war for the sake of profit. It's not even close to righteous battle.

You write as a child with no understanding of the ways of men - or God in war.

#3 Reconcile a vengeful God with expression of love?

This is the easiest one of all. God hates sin. Period. Sin destroys, lies, misrepresents itself as something good when it is false, kills and steals.

Over and over throughout the Bible, God sends the message that repentance will lead to mercy. Humility will lead to forgiveness and trust will lead to a response of divine love.

The expressions of love which you find so detestable are expressed toward those who have made peace with God, toward those who have left hate and murder, arrogance and lies behind them and embraced truth and joy and love. In exchange they discover mercy and kindness, deliverance and the promise of eternal happiness in the presence of their Lord and Savior.

Those who reject God receive the hell they deserve and ask for.
Those who repent of their sin receive love and mercy.

The Bible says clearly that the wages of sin is death. God delivers war upon those who wage war upon Him.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all good things will be added to you - mercy, forgiveness, love and joy.

God is not fair. The Bible never says He is, but God is JUST.

If a man continues all his life to hate and disobey God, then he will receive the hellish condemnation he so justly deserves. He will receive justice.

If a man humbly repents of his sins and seeks forgiveness in the blood and name of Jesus Christ he will receive mercy and forgives - an expression of divine justice too.

Today when you hear His voice do not refuse, but be penitent - Jesus saves. No other.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 22 by Elijah John]

I got a real problem with doctrines of reincarnation or pre-existence when those doctrines lead to the conclusion that everyone who suffers deserves their own suffering

Just an interesting note. This is the exact inverse of what I was talking about earlier. That all good is done through the will of god. Hopefully you can use this to gain your own insight.

I think this also falls in line with Karma as well. That if something bad happens in your life it is Karma for your behavior in a past life. Likewise you can also understand this by using the Golden rule. If something bad happens to you it is likely your fault for causing harm to another.

[otseng]

Yours is a hypocrisy, the stench of which rise into the nostrils of God in heaven. All men see your wickedness. God sees it too. Judge not God for He is able to judge YOU.

You write as a child with no understanding of the ways of men - or God in war.

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[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 24 by DanieltheDragon]

Often that is the case, that we reap what we sow, but not always. The innocent do suffer sometimes, in that I think we are in agreement.

But I do not see that as in anyway conflicting with the idea that all Good is from God. That is a reasonable belief if one believes that the nature of God is ultimate Good, and ultimately God is the SOURCE of all that is good, innate as part of human nature, or in the rest of Creation. That follows naturally from a Theistic world view.

But if one's world view is atheistic, of course one's conclusions will be different.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 26 by Elijah John]

Well yes ones view would be different, However what offence you took to his theological point is what equal offence I took to yours and his for that matter. In other words, try this If all good that is done in the world is done through god that naturally leaves us as sinful in nature. Now Truescott includes a past life to this paradigm but none the less it is this that all evil done in the world is done through man. It is the Yang to your Yin. Both function on the same principle, that God is the source of all good. His carries out a portion of that theological stand point to show where suffering comes from if god is the source of all good.

I am merely being an objective 3rd party here. Both of your position are 2 sides of the same coin.

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 3 by PaxRomana]

I can't think of any context genocide fits into, can you?

Yes, I DO.

You have to understand the context of what was going on. Certain bloodlines had been corrupted by crossing with angels creating 'mighty men', giants, ie the Nephilim. They were worshiped as 'gods'. Yes, Yah ordered the total destruction of those bloodlines. Letting those bloodlines continue would have been a much worse situation. Certain branches of the Canaanite people's were greatly corrupted and those that were not destroyed caused major problems and wars from that point on.

You also have to understand just how evil the pagan religions that those people's followed were. I am very familiar with that religion. I knew a modern day high priestess of the main Canaanite goddess. Just following that religion carries a death penalty by Yah's law and rightly so.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 28 by Yahu]

You make a claim, I do not think it is very valid. Care to support your claim with scripture? After all the genocides in the bible occur AFTER the flood. The Nephilim were wiped out during the flood. So I don't buy it.

[myth-one.com]

Re: The Character of God

In reading the Bible from start to finish, one will notice a sharp contrast between the two testaments. The Old Testament is considerably more ruthless and bloody as compared with the New Testament. One explanation for this is the different requirements by which one could gain everlasting life under the two testaments.

Under the Old Testament one had to obey all commandments and must accept the punishment of death for disobeying any commandment.

Consequently, any source which might cause people to sin needed to be ruthlessly destroyed!

But the New Testament taught a totally opposite approach of turning the other cheek and forgiveness:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:39)

This change in philosophies is because under the New Testament sin can be forgiven since a scapegoat took the punishment for mankind's sin.

Thus the wages of sin is no longer necessarily death:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Since death is no longer to be feared by believers, those who can cause our death are also no longer to be feared. We can thus forgive, shown kindness, praise them, feed them, etc.